Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

[Jimster480]

ooooof what a topic. Not a fan of EV's. Batteries are unsustainable long term. Parts are not commonplace meaning that you don't really "own it" as you can't fix it.
If I had to choose an electric car it would be the LEAF because it is the closest to a normal car tbh.

In order for us to run the world with EV's we need to transform our power grid to Nuclear (or Fusion, if we can finally make that work) as it is renewable and makes literally 8 millions times more power vs coal (1KG Coal = 8 KW, 1KG Uranium = 28M KW).

 

[Blumlein 88]

US regulators will certify first small nuclear reactor design

NuScale will get the final approval nearly six years after starting the process.

arstechnica.com

 

[Jimster480]

US regulators will certify first small nuclear reactor design

NuScale will get the final approval nearly six years after starting the process.

arstechnica.com

One of the best news I've ever read. Now lets see if we can get it implemented.

 

[gvl]

I own a Nissan Leaf since 2011, put almost 190k miles on it and it still works for my current needs on a replaced battery, but we also have gas-powered cars in the family. I don't think my next car will be an EV because I'm tired of all the surrounding drama. Sure, the Leaf's limited range and battery issues are to blame, but even longer range car are not free of EV-specific issues perhaps to a lesser extent. I just want a car I can drive into my retirement in 15 or so years without worrying about finding a charging spot when and where I need it, that it actually works and some a-hole is not blocking it, and I don't need to have 25 different charging network apps on my phone to fill up. I don't want to face a dilemma of an investment into a new battery after 10 years of ownership when the cost of a new battery is more than the cost of the depreciated car. Also I want to be able to repair my car at an independent shop which is often impossible with the EVs. As for gas prices, my current electric rate makes the fill up cost of driving a 30-40mpg hybrid comparable with charging at home, so why bother.

 

[Jimster480]

I own a Nissan Leaf since 2011, put almost 190k miles on it and it still works for my current needs on a replaced battery, but we also have gas-powered cars in the family. I don't think my next car will be an EV because I'm tired of all the surrounding drama. Sure, the Leaf's limited range and battery issues are to blame, but even longer range car are not free of EV-specific issues perhaps to a lesser extent. I just want a car I can drive into my retirement in 15 or so years without worrying about finding a charging spot when and where I need it, that it actually works and some a-hole is not blocking it, and I don't need to have 25 different charging network apps on my phone to fill up. I don't want to face a dilemma of an investment into a new battery after 10 years of ownership when the cost of a new battery is more than the cost of the depreciated car. Also I want to be able to repair my car at an independent shop which is often impossible with the EVs. As for gas prices, my current electric rate makes the fill up cost of driving a 30-40mpg hybrid comparable with charging at home, so why bother.

Great Insight from a person who has actually owned a leaf. I saw the leaf when it came out and I would have got one if I had a shorter commute back when I used to commute to work. But it just would not have worked back then and there was no charging infrastructure.

 

[gvl]

Great Insight from a person who has actually owned a leaf. I saw the leaf when it came out and I would have got one if I had a shorter commute back when I used to commute to work. But it just would not have worked back then and there was no charging infrastructure.

To be fair to the Leaf, it has been uber reliable, close to 0 issues over this term, sans the cooked battery, but I managed to squeeze new one from Nissan for free.

 

[Jimster480]

To be fair to the Leaf, it has been uber reliable, close to 0 issues over this term, sans the cooked battery, but I managed to squeeze new one from Nissan for free.

At least nissan makes the batteries. I just read an article where the 2014 Fusion EV has had its battery discontinued by Ford... so the car is basically a really expensive paperweight.
I own 3 Nissan vehicles and overall like them, I can work on them and they are reliable. As I said above; I would choose a LEAF also because it is the closest to a real car and parts are actually available.
I may buy one soon as the car market goes down over the next year. With my new property I will build a solar grid so I will be able to even charge the car from solar. Most things are close to me; so I won't use any gas in my local drives.

 

[jhaider]

If proposed bill eventually gets signed that provides Americans a decent tax incentive for purchase of qualified EV, I would consider that one part of the puzzle for a possible near future purchase.

One really good thing in the bill, IMO, is the subsidy for purchase of used EVs as well as new. That will expand the market penetration of EVs, as in the normal course used stuff sells for less than new stuff.

I admit a prejudice with Tesla, that being I find Elon Musk one of the most obnoxious people hogging media attention these days.

I think of Musk as the 21st century Howard Hughes: off his rocker and getting ever more as time passes, but one can't deny his impact.

 

[gvl]

At least nissan makes the batteries. I just read an article where the 2014 Fusion EV has had its battery discontinued by Ford... so the car is basically a really expensive paperweight.
I own 3 Nissan vehicles and overall like them, I can work on them and they are reliable. As I said above; I would choose a LEAF also because it is the closest to a real car and parts are actually available.
I may buy one soon as the car market goes down over the next year. With my new property I will build a solar grid so I will be able to even charge the car from solar. Most things are close to me; so I won't use any gas in my local drives.

Leaf batteries don’t do well in Florida, but you probably already know that. But if you’re handy and have a workshop in your garage/comfortable working around high voltage you can DIY refurb Leaf packs from a donor battery with relative ease.

 

[Chromatischism]

because it is the closest to a real car

Could you elaborate a little?

 

[Chromatischism]

I admit a prejudice with Tesla, that being I find Elon Musk one of the most obnoxious people hogging media attention these days.

I can only imagine owning a Tesla and having to face all of the relatives asking your thoughts on the latest thing he said or did at every gathering.

 

[Blumlein 88]

My cousin had one of the early Leafs. They were doubly bad because short range and a battery that doesn't hold up to use are the two chief concerns of prospective EV buyers. A Leaf and those who knew early owners really was an unfortunate product. One thing Musk had the right idea on was don't cheap out too much on the car. The early EVs could/can be expensive if they perform well. Leaf did what other makers in years past had done. Try to keep it as cheap as possible and in view of that make it just barely capable enough. Musk might be an objectionable person, so was Henry Ford, and Andrew Carnegie. Musk gets the job done anyway or has so far with Tesla and SpaceX. I'm buying the product, not the mans personal issues.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I can only imagine owning a Tesla and having to face all of the relatives asking your thoughts on the latest thing he said or did at every gathering.

Beats getting asked if you worry about your Bolt catching fire, or explaining why the local airport has a special Bolt parking area away from the parking deck as they are banned in the deck.

 

[gvl]

My cousin had one of the early Leafs. They were doubly bad because short range and a battery that doesn't hold up to use are the two chief concerns of prospective EV buyers. A Leaf and those who knew early owners really was an unfortunate product. One thing Musk had the right idea on was don't cheap out too much on the car. The early EVs could/can be expensive if they perform well. Leaf did what other makers in years past had done. Try to keep it as cheap as possible and in view of that make it just barely capable enough. Musk might be an objectionable person, so was Henry Ford, and Andrew Carnegie. Musk gets the job done anyway or has so far with Tesla and SpaceX. I'm buying the product.

Maybe I’m cheap, but I preferred a 25k car with shorter range that doesn’t last over a 100k one that does. It worked out ok. Many long term Tesla owners will be facing an out of pocket battery replacement, which won’t add much good to the cost of ownership experience. At least I can send my Leaf to a junk yard without thinking much about it.

 

[Jimster480]

Could you elaborate a little?

By a real car I mean something that you can take apart, fix and keep running basically forever on your own.
Most electric vehicles like Tesla's for example (and many of the other new electric cars) are nothing like modern cars.
If you aren't into cars it is hard to explain the fundamental differences, but all the parts are proprietary. You cannot change or fix anything yourself. You can't even source 3rd party parts because they don't exist. Everything is patented, single source parts making you 100% at the mercy of the mfg.
A leaf is just a car like another Nissan car. There are a few specific parts but otherwise the parts are available for the most part and you could change them yourself.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Maybe I’m cheap, but I preferred a 25k car with shorter range that doesn’t last over a 100k one that does. It worked out ok. Many long term Tesla owners will be facing an out of pocket battery replacement, which won’t add much good to the cost of ownership experience. At least I can send my Leaf to a junk yard without thinking much about it.

So far looks like Tesla batteries are good for 200k miles or so. Or maybe 175k-250k from results using them as taxis which is the worst use as they get fast charged all the time. The worst thing is that you'll at some point face a big battery replacement cost and it will likely be downstream owners who are more likely not to afford it. Of course you can run into similar things with IC cars if an engine lets go or a modern complex transmissions quits on you. In time all of this will get priced into the used worth of the cars same as it does for all the IC cars.

 

[Jimster480]

So far looks like Tesla batteries are good for 200k miles or so. Or maybe 175k-250k from results using them as taxis which is the worst use as they get fast charged all the time. The worst thing is that you'll at some point face a big battery replacement cost and it will likely be downstream owners who are more likely not to afford it. Of course you can run into similar things with IC cars if an engine lets go or a modern complex transmissions quits on you. In time all of this will get priced into the used worth of the cars same as it does for all the IC cars.

That depends, because transmissions or engines are literally like 1/10th the cost of the battery in most cases. Also you can find them in junkyards and do the work in secondary auto shops.
Batteries don't have a specific mile life, it depends on how much you take care of them. In the case of Tesla; if you are driving the cars hard and heating up the batteries they will have a shorter life. I know a few people who raced quite a bit in their Tesla's and they had to replace the motors at like 50k miles and their batteries were going by 100k....

 

[Newman]

“A May 2021 report from the International Energy Agency, an organization noted for its historically cautious forecasts, included a road map to achieve global net-zero emissions by mid-century, which includes conversion to electric transport as a cornerstone. The confidence that this is achievable reflects a growing consensus among policymakers, researchers and manufacturers that challenges to electrifying cars are now entirely solvable — and that if we want to have any hope of keeping climate change to a manageable level, there is no time to lose.” -Nature, “Electric cars and batteries: how will the world produce enough?”, 17 Aug 2021

 

[Jimster480]

“A May 2021 report from the International Energy Agency, an organization noted for its historically cautious forecasts, included a road map to achieve global net-zero emissions by mid-century, which includes conversion to electric transport as a cornerstone. The confidence that this is achievable reflects a growing consensus among policymakers, researchers and manufacturers that challenges to electrifying cars are now entirely solvable — and that if we want to have any hope of keeping climate change to a manageable level, there is no time to lose.” -Nature, “Electric cars and batteries: how will the world produce enough?”, 17 Aug 2021

Yes this is all political humdrum. There is no way to solve the problem. Electric vehicles are already hitting the limits of physics in terms of performance and battery charging times. Without an entirely different Battery Technology there is no future for EVS outside of City commuting vehicles. Additionally as a society we must make standards for EVS and they must be mass produced in a way that does not involve patented parts and proprietary systems on every single car. Because then you don't own anything as you are unable to repair it.

As a society we must move to nuclear energy if we have any chance with EVs in general. As it is we are entering a global energy crisis.
I will have to how to find the video explaining why EVs cannot bring us to a carbon neutral or carbon zero world. Because all the cars in the world emit only 9% of carbon emissions. Currently building EVs is in that and lithium batteries are unsustainable. Not only due to longevity and scarcity of materials, but also energy density. Gasoline is 17x as dense as a lithium battery in terms of power for weight.
Its a long road ahead. I think a balanced future is the best way to go. The internal combustion engine isn't anywhere near the end of it's usable life and most of the ICE techs are being suppressed by climate agencies pushing EVs.
As with anything balance is usually the answer.

 

[Chromatischism]

By a real car I mean something that you can take apart, fix and keep running basically forever on your own.
Most electric vehicles like Tesla's for example (and many of the other new electric cars) are nothing like modern cars.
If you aren't into cars it is hard to explain the fundamental differences, but all the parts are proprietary. You cannot change or fix anything yourself. You can't even source 3rd party parts because they don't exist. Everything is patented, single source parts making you 100% at the mercy of the mfg.
A leaf is just a car like another Nissan car. There are a few specific parts but otherwise the parts are available for the most part and you could change them yourself.

Gotcha. I do have car experience and that makes sense now that you've elaborated.