Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

[Suffolkhifinut]

1.5℃ is better than 2℃; 2℃ is better than 2.5℃; 2.5℃ is better than 3℃ ...

Frankly, we need to decarbonize as quickly as possible and very likely engage in some massive geo-engineering projects over the next 70 years, because doing so (which will be expensive) will be far cheaper than not doing so.

It can only work if you take the people with you, leaving them cold in the winter without the means to stay warm won’t do it.

 

[samsa]

It can only work if you take the people with you, leaving them cold in the winter without the means to stay warm won’t do it.

The distributional problem cuts both ways.

The benefits of burning cheap fossil fuels accrue to those using them, whereas the costs are borne by everyone (and even those are not borne equally; the Pacific Islander, whose entire country is going to be submerged, is measurably worse off than the affluent European, whose country is merely going to be ravaged by repeated wildfires).

As to electricity prices, I don't know about the UK, but in the US in inflation-adjusted terms (2022 $s), they have steadily fallen from an average of $0.19/kWhr in 1984 to an average of $0.16/kWhr today (source). So, if the shift to renewables has been immiserating us, there's no evidence of that in the price of electricity.

 

[blueone]

The distributional problem cuts both ways.

The benefits of burning cheap fossil fuels accrue to those using them, whereas the costs are borne by everyone (and even those are not borne equally; the Pacific Islander, whose entire country is going to be submerged, is measurably worse off than the affluent European, whose country is merely going to be ravaged by repeated wildfires).

That won't be compelling to someone with an unheated home because there's an insufficient supply of natural gas in Europe.

As to electricity prices, I don't know about the UK, but in the US in inflation-adjusted terms (2022 $s), they have steadily fallen from an average of $0.19/kWhr in 1984 to an average of $0.16/kWhr today (source). So, if the shift to renewables has been immiserating us, there's no evidence of that in the price of electricity.

This is due to a lot of reasons, like improving generation technology, but electricity isn't a good metric for heating. In North America and Europe the most common heating fuel is natural gas. And this coming winter the price of gas is going to be a lot higher than it ever has been. Heating oil too. I'm guessing fossil fuel production becomes a lot more important than it has been in 2023.

 

[Ron Texas]

Agreed. Pushing aside all other reasoning, even the US, being the 2nd largest emitter of greenhouse gases in the world, is only 12% or so of all emissions. It would take a global emergency effort to limit the temperature rise to 1.5C, and there's zero chance of that happening. China, India, and African countries would have to wean themselves from fossil fuels even faster than the US, which is unlikely. The US electorate is probably about to demonstrate its lack of enthusiasm for altering and degrading their lifestyles anytime soon. The same will happen in all democracies, and the autocracies will probably view the chaos as a chance for them to improve their strategic positions in the world. The uproar over high energy prices is already deafening. The industrial capacity isn't there to maintain anything like developed country lifestyles during an emergency transition, so we'd be looking at a worldwide depression and lowered standard of living for years. And no country will make that sacrifice unless everyone does, because the damage to their economies represents a national security threat.

The best way to spend money on climate change is to let technology evolution take its course, and spend money on mitigation factors, like flooding defenses, fire control technologies, hardening power grids, and improving the resiliency of public infrastructure. We're not staring at the precipice, we're falling already.

Sage words, especially about declining standards of living and autocracies taking advantage of green stupidity. It's already happening in the US with $5 gas and 9.1% inflation. In Europe we see dependence on Russian gas to offset closing coal and nuclear plants. The UK is crazy enough to build wind turbines which only work 14% of the time. Electric rates across Europe are extremely high. There's no such thing as an affordable electric car that's any good.

 

[blueone]

There's no such thing as an affordable electric car that's any good.

That's what I thought, but this past weekend I experienced the 2022 Chevy Bolt EUV that my daughter and her husband just bought. It was surprisingly good. Built like a real car, not a Tesla. ;-) Not a squeak or a rattle. Not ugly. Handles well. About $30K out the door. I wouldn't want to take it on a 500 mile interstate trip, but 200 miles of usable range is easily done. You can rent a gasoline car for long trips. They live on the west coast, so even 87 octane gas is currently in the $5/gal range, and his 40 mile per day commute was pricey enough to annoy them. I'm actually thinking about a Bolt for around town use. I probably won't, but I'm tempted. Electric technology attracts me.

 

[Ron Texas]

That's what I thought, but this past weekend I experienced the 2022 Chevy Bolt EUV that my daughter and her husband just bought. It was surprisingly good. Built like a real car, not a Tesla. ;-) Not a squeak or a rattle. Not ugly. Handles well. About $30K out the door. I wouldn't want to take it on a 500 mile interstate trip, but 200 miles of usable range is easily done. You can rent a gasoline car for long trips. They live on the west coast, so even 87 octane gas is currently in the $5/gal range, and his 40 mile per day commute was pricey enough to annoy them. I'm actually thinking about a Bolt for around town use. I probably won't, but I'm tempted. Electric technology attracts me.

Chevy is about to replace the Bolt because of too many fires hurt its reputation. I think the lower priced EV's will have very limited range for the foreseeable future. Fine around town. I suppose for a week on the road renting is a decent strategy. Right now, I'm gone for a month 1,000 miles from home. That car rental would get expensive. Eventually there will be level 3 or better chargers everywhere, but not right now.

 

[blueone]

Chevy is about to replace the Bolt because of too many fires hurt its reputation. I think the lower priced EV's will have very limited range for the foreseeable future. Fine around town. I suppose for a week on the road renting is a decent strategy. Right now, I'm gone for a month 1,000 miles from home. That car rental would get expensive. Eventually there will be level 3 or better chargers everywhere, but not right now.

Their EUV was delivered from the factory with the new battery. The 2023 is a mid-cycle refresh. The 2022 has a 260 mile range, which is about what they see. That's not very limited. As for your situation, it's not typical, and you're better off with an ICE car for the foreseeable future.

 

[Willem]

nor is doing it that quickly at all affordable.

The problem is that letting temperatures rise more is not cheap either. For example, many of the world's big cities are along the coast, and at sea level. Protecting them will be very expensive or impossible. The Netherlands can do this because we have the technology and the money, but not many other countries. But cutting down on fossil fuel consumption will be much cheaper.
Of course Europe now faces a more acute geopolitical energy crisis, and I can only hope (but I also expect) that this will lead to a swifter phasing out of much fossil fuel. We are certainly not the only family planning to stop using natural gas to heat our home. Most of our neighbours are in various stages of doing the same, for ecological reasons, but also to save money. We have finished the home insulation part, and already replaced the gas cooker with an electrical induction one. We are now waiting for a quote for a fully electrical heat pump system. It will massively reduce our heating bills, probably just in time for when our current cheap gas contract expires.

 

[Chromatischism]

The problem is that letting temperatures rise more is not cheap either. For example, many of the world's big cities are along the coast, and at sea level. Protecting them will be very expensive or impossible. The Netherlands can do this because we have the technology and the money, but not many other countries. But cutting down on fossil fuel consumption will be much cheaper.

We have so badly missed the boat on this...

Scientists have been warning us for decades and despite overwhelming evidence piling up, we just can't seem to get serious about the problem. We've let industry interests cloud the picture and confuse the public. As you say, doing nothing costs far more than being proactive. In fact, doing nothing will likely bankrupt countries as the damages pile up. We have already started seeing climate refugees from low-lying island nations and those relying on farming but hit with severe drought.

The U.S. had a great start with nuclear a long time ago, along with France. But, for political reasons, we abandoned the widespread adoption of nuclear energy. Thus, our dependence on oil and coal only increased. It's failures like this that have continued to heat the planet when we could have started bending the curve a long time ago. Then, the transition can be much more gradual and less jarring. Now, we don't have a choice but to take sudden evasive maneuvers which are technically and politically much harder to pull off.

Anyway, congrats on the induction and heat pump. Those are great technologies. Not only will you enjoy lower bills if implemented properly, you will also enjoy greater comfort.

 

[Chromatischism]

Pushing aside all other reasoning, even the US, being the 2nd largest emitter of greenhouse gases in the world, is only 12% or so of all emissions.

Well, that's currently on a yearly basis. Another way to look at is that since the industrial revolution, the U.S.A. has emitted the most. We account for about 25% of emissions so far.

 

[Willem]

Anyway, congrats on the induction and heat pump. Those are great technologies. Not only will you enjoy lower bills if implemented properly, you will also enjoy greater comfort.

The induction stove has been a revelation. Cooking is so much easier, and the benefit for indoor air quality is obvious. The whole operation was not cheap, however, totalling some 2000 euro for the stove itself, its installation including changes to the electrical wiring, and new pots and pans. But it is part of the larger transition: in the Netherlands we also pay a quite substantial connection charge for gas, so if you stop using gas for heating, you save a lot by ditching gas for cooking as well.
The benefit from the insulation is not just financial, but the additional comfort is also obvious, especially form the under floor insulation. Even whe3n it is freezing outside, when we get up and before the heating system turns on, the inside temperature is still some 18-19 degrees Celsius. In winter we get sunshine in the dining room (with huge East facing windows) and living room from about 8 in the morning, so we have now set the thermostat to only turn on the heating after 8 in the morning, when the sun is actually doing much of the work. It is too early to say how much this saves.

 

[Willem]

There could be two counter arguments:
1 It is cumulative to at least some extent, hence past emissions matter.
2 There is a possible moral argument that some countries have used up their "pollution capital".

I am not sure what religion has to do with it - the argument about fossil fuel as a cause of climate change is as coolly and uncontroversially scientific as can be. And as for "Our World in Data", I can only say that within the scientific community it is a highly respected source.

But to return to the theme of this thread: this morning it was announced that last year for the first time more than half of all mopeds in the Netherlands have been electrical. The explanation was twofold: electrical mopeds have become a lot cheaper (even though they are still quite expensive), and fuel costs are obviously a lot less. Not that I would ever want to have one. At such urban distances I rather take my bicycle.

 

[AdamG]

Thread Warning: As the Thread Title says. No political content permitted. Multiple posts have been removed and nothing else further for the time being. However, if the conversation continues into politics more severe moderation actions may be taken. I don’t want to close this thread but will if we just are unable to contain ourselves here.

Thank you for your support and understanding.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

There could be two counter arguments:
1 It is cumulative to at least some extent, hence past emissions matter.
2 There is a possible moral argument that some countries have used up their "pollution capital".

I am not sure what religion has to do with it - the argument about fossil fuel as a cause of climate change is as coolly and uncontroversially scientific as can be. And as for "Our World in Data", I can only say that within the scientific community it is a highly respected source.

But to return to the theme of this thread: this morning it was announced that last year for the first time more than half of all mopeds in the Netherlands have been electrical. The explanation was twofold: electrical mopeds have become a lot cheaper (even though they are still quite expensive), and fuel costs are obviously a lot less. Not that I would ever want to have one. At such urban distances I rather take my bicycle.

Electric mopeds are the best solution for large urban area travel. Certainty make a big difference to air quality.

 

[Ron Texas]

The concept of cumulative emissions is essentially political. It is a scheme to shift the burden of future improvements from recently developed and developing nations to those who developed early.

An editorial in the WSJ today mentioned that as a result of global warming fewer people are dying from temperature extremes. The fact is many more people die from cold than heat.

I'm finding it increasingly difficult to participate in this discussion. There is a group of realists and a group of idealists. The two will never meet. Only an election will resolve this problem.

 

[Laserjock]

On another note

NASCAR 'exploring' launch of electric racing series

NASCAR COO Steve O'Donnell said the sanctioning body is exploring the possibility of launching an exhibition series featuring all-electric cars.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Ron Texas]

On another note

NASCAR 'exploring' launch of electric racing series

NASCAR COO Steve O'Donnell said the sanctioning body is exploring the possibility of launching an exhibition series featuring all-electric cars.

www.foxnews.com

Not enough noise.

 

[Laserjock]

Not enough noise.

They mentioned a noise maker of some type

I have a Toyota Highlander Hybrid, makes a terrible noise when backing up..

I suppose it’s a warning of some type

 

[Ron Texas]

They mentioned a noise maker of some type

I have a Toyota Highlander Hybrid, makes a terrible noise when backing up..

I suppose it’s a warning of some type

Definitely a warning. You know big trucks have a loud beep when backing up on top of their deafening exhaust.

 

[Ron Texas]

Today climate activists announced the world has only 7 years to transition from fossil fuels to 100% renewable energy to hold global warming to 1.5C. Note, no mention of nuclear, and no mention of developing nations which are steadily ramping up coal fired electrical generation.