Your loudspeakers are too small!

[BoredErica]

Earl Geddes says that certain types of distortion doesn't matter too much (in that it cannot be heard in blind testing until quite high % levels) and he designed some pretty large speakers. He did an interview with Erin, I can't remember it all, but he did say something about small speakers FR changing as they heat up compared to larger ones.

Yes, so if you like to listen at high SPL and for a long time, it's better to get a larger speaker in general. But the fact that a large speaker is generally better for a larger room is not contested. Question is if a larger speaker even at lower spl in the same or different room offers something smaller speaker cannot. Now that I am not convinced.

Why is half this forum occupied with posters trying to BTFO people on the internet, aren't we all old and ugly enough to have moved beyond that kind of thing.

Because if you use terms like 'micro-dynamics', you're using the type of terminology "subjectivists" use and people don't like that here. Also many people here think that term means nothing and belies a lack of knowledge. You started this thread with the title 'your speakers are too small!'. You don't know what speakers I have or whether there are too small for me and if you're so sure you're right you damn well better provide some good evidence.

You didn't start the thread with a question, you started the thread claiming to know more than I do. So then prove it.

One millionth of a dynamic. Duh.

 

[gsp1971]

Hi @Digby ,

Can you please clarify some questions that I have:

I'm convinced my speakers, your speakers and 98% of enthusiasts speakers are too small.

Convinced based on?

Too small not only to provide enough headroom for uncompressed loud dynamic peaks,

Doesn't that depend on frequency?
Frequencies over 3-4 kHz are produced by tweeters not greater than 29mm. How can bigger speakers change that?
Similarly, frequencies from 150-200 Hz to 2-3kHz are produced by 4-6 inch drivers. Increasing the driver size does not produce more detail. It produces lower frequencies.
Perhaps your post refers only to the bass region?

but too small (and inefficient) to provide micro-dynamics at lower volumes. Increasing amplifier wattage does not solve this issue.

Not sure what you mean by micro-dynamics, can you please clarify? Do you mean 'detail'? (whatever that means)
Also, efficiency has to do with amplifier power required to play a given loudness.
I listen to my music at moderate volume, so 83-85dB sensitivity speakers combined with 100-150W amp power are more than enough for me.
A hypothetical hyper-sensitive 95dB 15'' driver that can tolerate 200-300W without distortion, what frequencies can it reproduce?

I can't see a way out of this scenario, big speakers aren't exactly inconspicuous (or beautiful for that matter), but I think of the reviews of 5" or 6" bass driver bookshelf speakers looking for ever better measurements could just be chasing our collective tails.

Why? A perfect bookshelf speaker with a tweeter and a 5-6'' driver will perfectly reproduce all music content over 150-200Hz to perfection. Still do not understand where driver size comes into this.

If you have the space (and most of us do), then what you need are bigger speakers.

Not everybody has spare space. My 4 x 5 = 20m2 living room is all the available space I have.

 

[DanielT]

What many so kindly and carefully in this thread who advocate it what to scream that volume, size, proper with power really matter. Damn it, pull on with the big stuff and go my way (is what they and I say):

Me too. Use small speakers (low SPL without sub), these Amir tests on the assembly line all the time, together with an amplifier with a little power for example Aiyima A07, Topping PA5, please what does it give?

However, the taste is individual.

With proper speakers and a lot of power, it goes like this:

Hifi Vintage DIY fair with pictures

I visited this fair yesterday! DIY & Vintage meeting in Mölnlycke Here is a short report. When: 6 November 2021 Where: Country: Sweden City: Gothenburg I took pictures myself BUT most were so damn blurred so I borrow pictures from this thread, taken by other participants. Pictures taken from...

audiosciencereview.com

You are Americans (many in the thread, I think), you invented high volume. Live up to it. The nonsense with tutt tots speakers and so on. Show where the cabinet should be instead.

Wilson Audio TuneTot Review (high-end bookshelf speaker)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Wilson Audio TuneTot stand-mount/bookshelf speaker. It is on kind loan from a member and costs around US $10,000 (varies due to color). I am not a fan of the way the front looks without the grill. The sides though sport probably the best...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

What many so kindly and carefully in this thread who advocate it what to scream that volume, size, proper with power really matter. Damn it, pull on with the big stuff and go my way (is what they and I say):

Me too. Use small speakers (low SPL without sub), these Amir tests on the assembly line all the time, together with an amplifier with a little power for example Aiyima A07, Topping PA5, please what does it give?

However, the taste is individual.

With proper speakers and a lot of power, it goes like this:

Hifi Vintage DIY fair with pictures

I visited this fair yesterday! DIY & Vintage meeting in Mölnlycke Here is a short report. When: 6 November 2021 Where: Country: Sweden City: Gothenburg I took pictures myself BUT most were so damn blurred so I borrow pictures from this thread, taken by other participants. Pictures taken from...

audiosciencereview.com

uh...errr...ok?

 

[DanielT]

uh...errr...ok?

Outbreak only. Never mind. General frutration that I took out. Has among other things received a parking fine. So back to normal ASR talk. Back to small sweet speakers and for that matter small sweet amplifiers. No more deviations, I promise.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Hey I got no problem with big speakers and big amps. It's all about synchronicity. There's no need for giant speakers and 200 watts of power in a closet. And a smaller system and speakers in an auditorium won't do much good either. But in a standard living room...such as my 14 foot by 18 foot apartment space...I simply have no use for that hugeness. When the talk about micro details and dynamics start, it quickly moves into the realm of audiophoolia. That room in the video there doesn't look like it's doing much for micro details.

 

[PierreV]

I care more about weight than I do about size. As long as I am lighter than my main speakers, my BMI is healthy.

 

[DanielT]

Hey I got no problem with big speakers and big amps. It's all about synchronicity. There's no need for giant speakers and 200 watts of power in a closet. And a smaller system and speakers in an auditorium won't do much good either. But in a standard living room...such as my 14 foot by 18 foot apartment space...I simply have no use for that hugeness. When the talk about micro details and dynamics start, it quickly moves into the realm of audiophoolia. That room in the video there doesn't look like it's doing much for micro details.

We should not turn it into a HiFi therapy session. I'm annoyed a lot now. I'll add one little thing. Right now new fuc** whiny neighbors complaining like he** about just a little extra loud sound. It became "onion on the salmon". So right now I'm stuck with this toy listening.Hm, then maybe I should buy that Topping PA5? It's small. Do not curse the darkness, light a candle.

I know that it is idiotic and excessive to, for example, sprinkle a lot of fat sub in an apartment. Many of the small speakers Amir tests are superb. They fit perfectly in normal-sized living rooms, listening rooms.

Of course, those speakers in the Youtube video sounded better IRL. Here's the DIY thread about them:

faktiskt.io • Visa tråd - SALS?A! - en väldigt lång historia

Edit:
In fact, those new speakers, Kali LP-6 V2 ...115 dB Max SPL (although Amir did not test them yet) with two subs in a living room. Paired with sensible integration and EQ. It goes a long way with that.Really long. Even with higher volume.

 

[Chr1]

I care more about weight than I do about size. As long as I am lighter than my main speakers, my BMI is healthy.

Being old, I no longer care too much about my BMI...
However, as long as I am lighter than the total of all my speakers I am happy.

 

[Robin L]

I care more about weight than I do about size. As long as I am lighter than my main speakers, my BMI is healthy.

I care more about weight than I do about size. As long as I am lighter than my main speakers, my BMI is healthy.

Explains all this fuss over Wilson Audio speakers.

 

[rdenney]

Nothing of worth, so the entire thread is in vain?

Perhaps a better term is transient response, I'm not sure if that is what I'm after. Essentially a lifelike sound that sounds closer to the playing of, for example, an acoustic guitar - usually this is seen with larger, more efficient speakers, more so than smaller, less efficient ones. The smaller speaker has a flatter sound, although this isn't dynamic in testing the limits of volume swings. So yes, probably micro-dynamics is the wrong term.

What do you think, is transient response the term I'm looking for? You're the technical expert, so perhaps you know. Attempting to understand what a poster means and then correcting them is better than just sneering, no? If we all have to be perfect in both our language and understanding of these things before we can start a thread, then forum membership should be limited to 30 or so handpicked experts.

Transient response is a function of frequency response. The jump provided by the transient is like the upslope of a sine wave at a high enough frequency, and holding at the elevated level for more than an instantaneous change is DC.

Recorded transients of course include the effects of bandwidth constraints of the recording equipment, too, turning the transient into a high frequency wiggle.

To me, microdynamics just means that the speakers play loud, sudden sounds without ringing when starting from a low level. Macrodynamics means that the speakers can be playing really loud and suddenly become quite without ringing. (This is an example of Male Answer Syndrome. Now, prove me wrong.)

For me, a small speaker only sounds small in two ways: 1.) inadequate or boomy bass extension, and 2.) limited peak SPL before compression, and compression could be related to several different processes from overheating the voice coil to bottoming out. Both are reflected in the the small cabinet and high Q of the port, and in the small woofer running out of excursion.

I'm interested in both. I have speakers that play loud, speakers that play low, and speakers that play low and loud. Bigger makes low easier, but it's more about design than anything.

Rick "subless on the main system" Denney

 

[mhardy6647]

Personally -- I like big loudspeakers and small (at least in terms of power output capability) amplification.

 

[Chr1]

I am interested to know if there are any advantages to small speakers other than size and potentially cost?

 

[SIY]

I am interested to know if there are any advantages to small speakers other than size and potentially cost?

Easier to control diffraction and directivity. Baffle step frequency can be moved up to near the crossover point making compensation simpler.

Not to mention a LOT easier to fit into smaller rooms.

 

[krabapple]

I don't know what micro-dynamics are.

Nonsense made up by audiophiles to give themselves something else they can claim to hear.

 

[Chr1]

Easier to control diffraction and directivity. Baffle step frequency can be moved up to near the crossover point making compensation simpler.

Not to mention a LOT easier to fit into smaller rooms.

Thanks. So presumably theoretically/ideally you want the smallest speaker possible, that can manage the SPL and bass extension that you require? ...Presumably however there will always be a trade off when it comes to distortion vs the factors that you mentioned previously.

 

[Robin L]

Thanks. So presumably theoretically/ideally you want the smallest speaker possible, that can manage the SPL and bass extension that you require? ...Presumably however there will always be a trade off when it comes to distortion vs the factors that you mentioned previously.

The ideal speaker occupies no space, moving all those air molecules by sheer force of will alone.

 

[facefirst]

Look at these chonki bois

 

[SIY]

Thanks. So presumably theoretically/ideally you want the smallest speaker possible, that can manage the SPL and bass extension that you require? ...Presumably however there will always be a trade off when it comes to distortion vs the factors that you mentioned previously.

There's some interesting dodges. For example, the speakers in my lab are pretty large, but super narrow fronts. Or the old satellite-sub trick.

SPL at mid and treble does not take large drivers or cabinets for less-than-palatial rooms. The issue is always bass.

 

[Digby]

There really is no argument being made, thrust or otherwise. "Too small not only to provide enough headroom for uncompressed loud dynamic peaks, but too small (and inefficient) to provide micro-dynamics at lower volumes."

For all but pretty small rooms the first part is true of 5" or 6" woofer speakers. None of which can play from 40hz (let alone 30hz) at reasonably loud levels (not concert hall, but something akin to a small party) without sounding like they are struggling.

You can fill in up to 80hz with subwoofers, even multiples thereof, but I'm not convinced the bass from a 5" driver above 80hz sounds (or feels) the same as bass from a 10" or 12" driver.

There is a difference, it is not imagined. Perhaps it has to do with the size of the image produced by speakers also. Perhaps something to do with directivity into bass frequencies, who knows?

Convinced based on?

Based on the fact that when speaker size and cost is of little concern, end game type speakers get large. JBL M2, Neumann KH420, Genelec 1038. These are no compromise designs and they are not small.

I was also convinced by the record thread that said vinyl is better. I don't think it is better, and there are plenty to come out a laugh at such a thing, but then many of the same people seem to have no difficulty in believing mini sized speakers will produce accurate sound (which would include some headroom approaching realistic SPL and reasonably low bass). To use such speakers in a way where you get the sense of reasonable SPL (sans many low frequencies), you have to run them right up to their limit and you can hear them being run up to the limit.