"You wouldn't download a car..." Turns out maybe you can? The free endgame solution for objectivists

[dwkdnvr]

How about the same with speakers?

You can't really make one speaker sound like another in the same way since you have physical characteristics like dispersion, ported/sealed, driver excursion etc which introduce limitations that aren't possible to 'undo' in the same way that frequency response is.

However, the same guy that did 'AutoEQ' also created a tool called 'Impulcifier' which measures the in-room response of a set of speakers with binaural mics, and then uses that to reproduce the sound of the system over headphones. You can do up to a 7-channel surround rig. This has been done before - it's basically the same idea as the Smyth Realizer, but Impulcifier is free. I've done some experiments with it, and it's fairly impressive from what I can hear so far. I need to get back to it and do some more critical listening comparisons.

Impulcifier actually includes a headphone-response measurement step as part of the process, which in theory eliminates the headphone response as a variable, although so far I've gotten much better results with my Nad Viso HP50 than with my Senn HD6XX - one of the things I need to investigate.

 

[Gatordaddy]

Interesting development. Can't wait to play around with it.

For the record I would totally download a car.

 

[Theriverlethe]

Not only is this "close enough" to make me happy about spending the cash on something else, I am happier than I would be with an actual LCD-4. Even though the Audeze weight never bothered me as such, the HD800 is infinitely comfier. And the closed back gives me isolation and subbass impact I couldn't get with a real LCD-4.

Is there a different HD800 or you referring to the incredibly open-backed Sennheiser HD800?

 

[Theriverlethe]

The Grado's, HD6X0 drivers, Struggle more with bass boosts than other headphones. They can't mimic the +10db bass the Shure SRH1540 has without dying. Just like how some planars might struggle with DD/BA gear since they don't have a weird 4k dip that can max out at -8, Think the audeze LCDi4.

It's a common argument why does The Andro, SE846, 8BA CIEMs need more than 3 drivers. When the ER4XR & W30 can easily handle their FR tunings if not better since there will no crossover artifacts from having to handle 4 ~ 12 drivers.

My 10+ year-old HD650's seem to be doing fine with with +6dB at 25Hz to reach the Harman target. Why would you need +12dB?

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

CTRL+F on the main page for "HD650" and you'll see a sample of how to make an HD650 profile for the HD800. Adapt the coding used for that for whatever you're trying to make instead. The "measurements" page has instructions you need to follow before it will work. Then there are some instructions on the main page for installing it too. Oratory1990's rig has the best measurements by far, followed by Crinacle but you have to toss him a few $ on Patreon to get them. Others are significantly less reliable/accurate so only use them if there's no other option. There's stuff you have to install, then you ultimately have to get AutoEQ running from your command prompt where you type in an instruction and it spits out the code to a predefined folder. It can be tricky so I'll be happy to answer questions to try to help from here.

I'm clearly not very technical because that made not a lot of sense to me

Perhaps I'll tell you what I'd like to try and then if your offer still stands that would be great (if it's too much of a pain, that's fine too)

I used to own a pair of Audeze LCD-X (open back). Loved the sound but they were too heavy.
I now have pair of HifiMan HE Edition X.
I run a mac with Roon, so I can input parametric EQ manually or upload a convolution file.
So if I wanted to make the HifiMan sound like the Audeze how would I do this?

 

[Blujackaal]

My 10+ year-old HD650's seem to be doing fine with with +6dB at 25Hz to reach the Harman target. Why would you need +12dB?

I take that back the under 80db SPL, The HD650 could mimic the SRH1540 with it bass. The HD6X0 only die at 90 - 100db but no one would do that unlesss they hate there ears. With the ER4SR being 0.6% at 100db, The ER4 could still sound clean at 80 - 100db doing FR mimics of IEM version of Full size cans/IEMs.

 

[Jimshoe]

Ooh! This sounds really interesting.

I'm just awaiting delivery of a Topping DX-7pro (to replace an RPI DAC and Schitt Jotunheim combo) and I'm keen to squeeze all I can out of my HD650s.

I've been wondering about the best approach to using EQ (which I can do easily in Roon). It looks like the best option wil be to try the convolution .wav files on the AutoEQ site.

Thank you for the heads up.

Doug

 

[Theriverlethe]

I take that back the under 80db SPL, The HD650 could mimic the SRH1540 with it bass. The HD6X0 only die at 90 - 100db but no one would do that unlesss they hate there ears. With the ER4SR being 0.6% at 100db, The ER4 could still sound clean at 80 - 100db doing FR mimics of IEM version of Full size cans/IEMs.

Why would they die at 90dB? Innerfidelity measurements show less than 10% THD by 20Hz with 100dB SPL. Distortion at sub-bass frequencies isn’t nearly as audible unless you’re listening to test tones. Sennheisers might need a couple dB boost in the upper bass region around 100 - 200Hz to match the Shures, but I don’t think that would be a problem either.

 

[watchnerd]

I'd have to do a lot more headphone listening than I currently do to bother with it.

My headphone listening is reserved for late at night when my wife is trying to go to sleep.

Speaker to headphone listening ratio is, I dunno, probably 20:1.

 

[GelbeMusik]

Distortion at sub-bass frequencies isn’t nearly as audible unless you’re listening to test tones.

But intermodulation becomes an issue. That is not only audible, but simply annoying. We are dealing with a full range driver here, don't we?

Interestingly the Sennheiser HD58X hat more bass, but that wasn't as fine as that of AKP K702--both equalized and same level (measured).

All those freq.resp. curves out don't fit my ears. Lately I equalized the Senn and the AKG to have close to same tonality. Actally, as someone else mentioned, all those peaks 'n dips are somwhere else

Listen to White Noise and try to catch the coloration with an EQ. With peaks that's easy. An arbitrarily applied parametric would introduce some (additional) coloration, until it hits that very peak. I wondered how easy that reveals. Adjust Q and depth of suck You feel is good. A quite decisiveprocess, as deviations are easily heard.

For instance, the 5k dip of the Senn, as depicted by "rtings" isn't there with me. The 2.5k peak of the AKG is more around 2k, and way sharper.

 

[Theriverlethe]

But intermodulation becomes an issue. That is not only audible, but simply annoying. We are dealing with a full range driver here, don't we?

Interestingly the Sennheiser HD58X hat more bass, but that wasn't as fine as that of AKP K702--both equalized and same level (measured).

All those freq.resp. curves out don't fit my ears. Lately I equalized the Senn and the AKG to have close to same tonality. Actally, as someone else mentioned, all those peaks 'n dips are somwhere else

Listen to White Noise and try to catch the coloration with an EQ. With peaks that's easy. An arbitrarily applied parametric would introduce some (additional) coloration, until it hits that very peak. I wondered how easy that reveals. Adjust Q and depth of suck You feel is good. A quite decisiveprocess, as deviations are easily heard.

For instance, the 5k dip of the Senn, as depicted by "rtings" isn't there with me. The 2.5k peak of the AKG is more around 2k, and way sharper.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Where do you see evidence of high IMD with Sennheiser drivers used in the 90 - 100dB SPL range? Can you name a track with a lot of sub-bass where it becomes an issue?

 

[GelbeMusik]

Can you name a track with a lot of sub-bass where it becomes an issue?

Define "issue"

Of course the available level before IM chimes in is way higher than with (nearly) any home audio speaker. To listen at such levels for prolonged time … You already know.

So, the problem isn't actually real, for me, practically. But one might not tell, that leaving the linear regime due to bass re-production is a non-issue. Whilst THD in bass wasn't in particular perceived, the technical root cause for THD is the voice coil leaving the linear regime. Then there is still IM, which is clearly audible. (But not for so long, as ones hearing gets degraded, maybe permanently--here You are.)

Btw.: test tone at very high level could leave over-sensitivities for long time, like staring at the sun. It spoiled my fun with HiFi several times for weeks. Guys, take care

Your nanny

 

[ishmeister]

I've been satisfied with Sonarworks. It improved both my HD600 and DT 1990 Pro. I could be wrong but I think their FR target is based on Harman but modified in some areas. The improvement of the 1990 is much more dramatic and I only bought this headphone because I knew it was supported by Sonarworks. The 1990+Sonarworks is a price/performance sweet spot for me and I'm reluctant to spend more on a headphone.

I don't hear any bass distortion but looking at the measurements Sonarworks has done it varies by headphone. E.g. the Focal Elear still has virtually no distortion after correction. On the other hand, sub bass distortion in the HD650 does rise to 10%+ but it is largely 2nd harmonic and is unlikely to be troublesome.

I use the age related hearing loss feature which I think was only part of True-Fi (now discontinued). True-Fi has since been replaced with a more consumer oriented product called SoundID which is focused on preference discovery and includes an audio-metric test (designed to improve stereo image by compensating for each individual's left/right ear differences). But it is a new product and still maturing so I'll continue to use True-Fi for now.

 

[Veri]

I've been satisfied with Sonarworks. It improved both my HD600 and DT 1990 Pro. I could be wrong but I think their FR target is based on Harman but modified in some areas. The improvement of the 1990 is much more dramatic and I only bought this headphone because I knew it was supported by Sonarworks. The 1990+Sonarworks is a price/performance sweet spot for me and I'm reluctant to spend more on a headphone.

I don't hear any bass distortion but looking at the measurements Sonarworks has done it varies by headphone. E.g. the Focal Elear still has virtually no distortion after correction. On the other hand, sub bass distortion in the HD650 does rise to 10%+ but it is largely 2nd harmonic and is unlikely to be troublesome.

I use the age related hearing loss feature which I think was only part of True-Fi (now discontinued). True-Fi has since been replaced with a more consumer oriented product called SoundID which is focused on preference discovery and includes an audio-metric test (designed to improve stereo image by compensating for each individual's left/right ear differences). But it is a new product and still maturing so I'll continue to use True-Fi for now.

I use Sonarworks on my HD650 and a custom calibrated headphone, both on 70% wet. I like it a lot. Sometimes I use the headphone straight but the calibration is just more balanced.

 

[GelbeMusik]

… a custom calibrated headphone ...

Do You have to send Your head in? Just kidding--it should be the whole torso.

Ehm, same as with the Harman Curve of Preference the "target" is derived from an average. It might be as precise as science goes today. But, still it is an average, and me for instance might be an oddball.

Not even an in ear microphone would help with that. Because the target includes, as stated, the torso. Namely its presence in a diffuse or free field of a "neutral" (kind of) loudspeaker. Mono I assume … . It's a mess, actually.

What would You do?

 

[Veri]

Do You have to send Your head in? Just kidding--it should be the whole torso.

Eh, they just professionally measured my headphone and calculated a profile according to their target curve. That's good enough for me, as the result is quite pleasing.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

I'm clearly not very technical because that made not a lot of sense to me

Perhaps I'll tell you what I'd like to try and then if your offer still stands that would be great (if it's too much of a pain, that's fine too)

I used to own a pair of Audeze LCD-X (open back). Loved the sound but they were too heavy.
I now have pair of HifiMan HE Edition X.
I run a mac with Roon, so I can input parametric EQ manually or upload a convolution file.
So if I wanted to make the HifiMan sound like the Audeze how would I do this?

@ChickenChaser ?

 

[Theriverlethe]

I've been satisfied with Sonarworks. It improved both my HD600 and DT 1990 Pro. I could be wrong but I think their FR target is based on Harman but modified in some areas. The improvement of the 1990 is much more dramatic and I only bought this headphone because I knew it was supported by Sonarworks. The 1990+Sonarworks is a price/performance sweet spot for me and I'm reluctant to spend more on a headphone.

I don't hear any bass distortion but looking at the measurements Sonarworks has done it varies by headphone. E.g. the Focal Elear still has virtually no distortion after correction. On the other hand, sub bass distortion in the HD650 does rise to 10%+ but it is largely 2nd harmonic and is unlikely to be troublesome.

I use the age related hearing loss feature which I think was only part of True-Fi (now discontinued). True-Fi has since been replaced with a more consumer oriented product called SoundID which is focused on preference discovery and includes an audio-metric test (designed to improve stereo image by compensating for each individual's left/right ear differences). But it is a new product and still maturing so I'll continue to use True-Fi for now.

It doesn't look like the Elear needs more than a couple dB boost in the sub-bass. The biggest correction is for a dip around 4200Hz.

 

[Blujackaal]

Noticed if you want to mimic the ER4S, ER4SR, ER4XR on the ER3SE. Use the ER4PT profile since the ER3SE own FR is the same.

 

[GelbeMusik]

Eh, they just professionally measured my headphone and calculated a profile according to their target curve. That's good enough for me, as the result is quite pleasing.

Sure, I wasn't so serious. But I think my caveat holds. At least I fine-tune the EQ e/g from AutoEq, which I use. The how to is a bit complicated to explain, though.