Yet another post about best active speakers for near field listening

[Nicochu]

Thanks for all your answers !

Here is what I get from what you said :

• You all seem to agree I need a sub even if it doesn't go too loud
• The room EQ is a very good upgrade, especially with a sub
• Room treatment could be a thing, but I won't stay very long in my appartment and i'd like to avoid this step for now if possible
• The Neumann KH 310 are overkill
• Topping EX5 would feat the needs but an AES/EBU SPDIF Cable could also do the trick, I really like the bluetooth capability of the topping EX5 though

Some of you are advising me to take a cheaper option like Neumann KH 80, kali Audio IN-5 or Adam Audio TV5 with a sub to try cheaper setup first but I've thinked about it and here are my concerns.
I have the feeling that almost every near field active speakers are studio monitors and not "audiophiles monitors". I mean by this that they are more focused on details, perfect sound reproduction and music analysis than listening pleasure (I don't know how to clearly explain this but I think you get the idea).
I probably might be wrong but I have the newbie feeling that if a really high-end setup (let say 8331 + 7350) doesn't sound very good to my ears, almost none of the cheaper ones would as they tend to sound the same (neutral and analytic sound).
I also have the feeling that passive speakers (and headphones) do not all tend to this kind of neutral sound and some of them are designed for pleasure more than analysis.

Am I totally wrong on that feeling ?
If i'm wrong can I really enjoy something like KH 80 or kali+ sub while I don't enjoy 8331 + 7350 on the other side even with custom EQ on top of the GLM one ?
If i'm not wrong is there some active very near field spakers that are not on that "neutral sound" focus and more on the "pleasure" focus ? Like no studio but more hi-fi oriented speakers ?


I'm far from being rich but I've saved money for a while and I want to offer myself a nice gift. Of course if I prefer what I get for 2000€ or cheaper then i'll be verry happy with that, but if I can definitively hear an enjoying difference on a more expensive setup while not exploding my budget i'm ready to go for it.

 

[dshreter]

• You all seem to agree I need a sub even if it doesn't go too loud
  100% if you are listening for pleasure get a sub
• The room EQ is a very good upgrade, especially with a sub
  EQ is quite important for a sub. I don't think it is very important for a near field monitor being used for enjoyment but if you have the capability, you might as well do the monitors too.
• Room treatment could be a thing, but I won't stay very long in my appartment and i'd like to avoid this step for now if possible
  Of course it's not ideal, but whatever you get needs to fit into your room and life
• The Neumann KH 310 are overkill
  Mega overkill

Some of you are advising me to take a cheaper option like Neumann KH 80, kali Audio IN-5 or Adam Audio TV5 with a sub to try cheaper setup first but I've thinked about it and here are my concerns.
I have the feeling that almost every near field active speakers are studio monitors and not "audiophiles monitors". I mean by this that they are more focused on details, perfect sound reproduction and music analysis than listening pleasure (I don't know how to clearly explain this but I think you get the idea).
It is a myth that studio monitors sound "analytical" while audiophile monitors are more enjoyable to listen to. If you want a different spectral balance, you can always EQ your monitors to be brighter, darker, or any other target curve if that's what you want to your taste, but the benefits of a good monitor remain regardless. And for a desktop speaker, they're purpose designed for that use case while most audiophile speakers are meant for stands. But neutral doesn't mean boring unless the recordings are boring.

I probably might be wrong but I have the newbie feeling that if a really high-end setup (let say 8331 + 7350) doesn't sound very good to my ears, almost none of the cheaper ones would as they tend to sound the same (neutral and analytic sound).
I also have the feeling that passive speakers (and headphones) do not all tend to this kind of neutral sound and some of them are designed for pleasure more than analysis.
Did 8331 + 7350 actually sound bad to you? I refute the idea of an "analytic sound", it's just jargon that came to be because studio monitors look like tools instead of instruments.

 

[mkt]

It is a myth that studio monitors sound "analytical" while audiophile monitors are more enjoyable to listen to.

+1

 

[dominikz]

• You all seem to agree I need a sub even if it doesn't go too loud
  100% if you are listening for pleasure get a sub
• The room EQ is a very good upgrade, especially with a sub
  EQ is quite important for a sub. I don't think it is very important for a near field monitor being used for enjoyment but if you have the capability, you might as well do the monitors too.
• Room treatment could be a thing, but I won't stay very long in my appartment and i'd like to avoid this step for now if possible
  Of course it's not ideal, but whatever you get needs to fit into your room and life
• The Neumann KH 310 are overkill
  Mega overkill

Some of you are advising me to take a cheaper option like Neumann KH 80, kali Audio IN-5 or Adam Audio TV5 with a sub to try cheaper setup first but I've thinked about it and here are my concerns.
I have the feeling that almost every near field active speakers are studio monitors and not "audiophiles monitors". I mean by this that they are more focused on details, perfect sound reproduction and music analysis than listening pleasure (I don't know how to clearly explain this but I think you get the idea).
It is a myth that studio monitors sound "analytical" while audiophile monitors are more enjoyable to listen to. If you want a different spectral balance, you can always EQ your monitors to be brighter, darker, or any other target curve if that's what you want to your taste, but the benefits of a good monitor remain regardless. And for a desktop speaker, they're purpose designed for that use case while most audiophile speakers are meant for stands. But neutral doesn't mean boring unless the recordings are boring.

I probably might be wrong but I have the newbie feeling that if a really high-end setup (let say 8331 + 7350) doesn't sound very good to my ears, almost none of the cheaper ones would as they tend to sound the same (neutral and analytic sound).
I also have the feeling that passive speakers (and headphones) do not all tend to this kind of neutral sound and some of them are designed for pleasure more than analysis.
Did 8331 + 7350 actually sound bad to you? I refute the idea of an "analytic sound", it's just jargon that came to be because studio monitors look like tools instead of instruments.

Nice post!
However, regarding EQ:

EQ is quite important for a sub. I don't think it is very important for a near field monitor being used for enjoyment but if you have the capability, you might as well do the monitors too.

Have to say my experience is quite different - in my desktop/nearfield system at only 70cm listening distance I get severe resonance and as a result the so-called 'one note bass' unless I use corrective EQ.
Here's an example, also showing how opening or closing windows/doors in the room affect the resonances:

As you can see, there is a narrow and very severe resonance at ~130Hz, some suckout of energy between 60-120Hz, and another resonance that moves from ~45Hz to 55Hz, depending on whether windows/doors are closed or not (see this thread for more information). As you can imagine these resonances are very audible and distacting, and IMHO make the system almost unlistenable unless corrected. I should perhaps admit that my untreated, reflective room and non symmetric positioning is far from ideal (but perhaps a realistic situation for many)

However, thankfully with just 3-band PEQ on my RME soundcard I can transform the sound to be very pleasing (note that I have 3 slightly different basic EQ presets that I change depending on window/door position to battle the changes in resonances):

In conclusion, YMMV but I personally find EQ even more critical in my desktop system (0,7m listening distance) than in my living room (with 2,3m listening distance).
So IMHO at least getting a measurement mic should be one of the first audio investments when building a good system - then based on listening and in-room measurement one can decide if EQ is necessary in the specific case.

 

[dshreter]

Nice post!
However, regarding EQ:

Have to say my experience is quite different - in my desktop/nearfield system at only 70cm listening distance I get severe resonance and as a result the so-called 'one note bass' unless I use corrective EQ.
Here's an example, also showing how opening or closing windows/doors in the room affect the resonances:

As you can see, there is a narrow and very severe resonance at ~130Hz, some suckout of energy between 60-120Hz, and another resonance that moves from ~45Hz to 55Hz, depending on whether windows/doors are closed or not (see this thread for more information). As you can imagine these resonances are very audible and distacting, and IMHO make the system almost unlistenable unless corrected. I should perhaps admit that my untreated, reflective room and non symmetric positioning is far from ideal (but perhaps a realistic situation for many)

However, thankfully with just 3-band PEQ on my RME soundcard I can transform the sound to be very pleasing (note that I have 3 slightly different basic EQ presets that I change depending on window/door position to battle the changes in resonances):

In conclusion, YMMV but I personally find EQ even more critical in my desktop system (0,7m listening distance) than in my living room (with 2,3m listening distance).
So IMHO at least getting a measurement mic should be one of the first audio investments when building a good system - then based on listening and in-room measurement one can decide if EQ is necessary in the specific case.

Totally fair. My personal experience had seen the major nodes show up in the region being low passed to the subwoofer but you’re totally right that isn’t necessarily the case.

 

[oozlum]

Thanks for all your answers !

Here is what I get from what you said :

• You all seem to agree I need a sub even if it doesn't go too loud
• The room EQ is a very good upgrade, especially with a sub
• Room treatment could be a thing, but I won't stay very long in my appartment and i'd like to avoid this step for now if possible
• The Neumann KH 310 are overkill
• Topping EX5 would feat the needs but an AES/EBU SPDIF Cable could also do the trick, I really like the bluetooth capability of the topping EX5 though

Some of you are advising me to take a cheaper option like Neumann KH 80, kali Audio IN-5 or Adam Audio TV5 with a sub to try cheaper setup first but I've thinked about it and here are my concerns.
I have the feeling that almost every near field active speakers are studio monitors and not "audiophiles monitors". I mean by this that they are more focused on details, perfect sound reproduction and music analysis than listening pleasure (I don't know how to clearly explain this but I think you get the idea).
I probably might be wrong but I have the newbie feeling that if a really high-end setup (let say 8331 + 7350) doesn't sound very good to my ears, almost none of the cheaper ones would as they tend to sound the same (neutral and analytic sound).
I also have the feeling that passive speakers (and headphones) do not all tend to this kind of neutral sound and some of them are designed for pleasure more than analysis.

Am I totally wrong on that feeling ?
If i'm wrong can I really enjoy something like KH 80 or kali+ sub while I don't enjoy 8331 + 7350 on the other side even with custom EQ on top of the GLM one ?
If i'm not wrong is there some active very near field spakers that are not on that "neutral sound" focus and more on the "pleasure" focus ? Like no studio but more hi-fi oriented speakers ?


I'm far from being rich but I've saved money for a while and I want to offer myself a nice gift. Of course if I prefer what I get for 2000€ or cheaper then i'll be verry happy with that, but if I can definitively hear an enjoying difference on a more expensive setup while not exploding my budget i'm ready to go for it.

KEF LS50 Meta with sub?

Review by Amir here

 

[Nicochu]

Did 8331 + 7350 actually sound bad to you? I refute the idea of an "analytic sound", it's just jargon that came to be because studio monitors look like tools instead of instruments.

I have not listened to any genelec speaker yet, I'm looking for a place when i can listen to them but it might not be 8331 (they seem to only have the g one to g five with RCA which are equivalent to 80x0 if i'm correct). Still I guess this is better than nothing .

If you want a different spectral balance, you can always EQ your monitors to be brighter, darker, or any other target curve if that's what you want to your taste, but the benefits of a good monitor remain regardless.

Regarding what you said, is there a world where I could like the Genelec 8030 more than the 8330 + GLM + EQ, and a step forward could I like 8330 and unlike the 8331 even with GLM + custom EQ to my likes on both ?
And is there a world where i could prefer a far more cheaper setup like Neumann KH 80 + sub or something like Adam T5V + sub more than 8331 + 7350 with the good EQ ? I guess it's always possible but does this scenario already happened on the forum for example ?

In conclusion, YMMV but I personally find EQ even more critical in my desktop system (0,7m listening distance) than in my living room (with 2,3m listening distance).

I was really considering room EQ and you confirm what I was thinking, thanks !
I'm mostly considering Genelec 83xx as I will often put music from my phone with bluetooth (PC off), if I'm correct the EQ with GLM is set in the speaker so you can calibrate it then unplug the GLM set until you change the place of your speakers.
I don't know how it works with Neumann room EQ though, do you need a running software to EQ them or do they work like Genelec speakers ?

KEF LS50 Meta with sub?

Thanks but those are not active speakers, I might be considering passive if no active one satisfy me but I'm sure it won't be the case

 

[Descartes]

JBL 705P! Outstanding speakers
Or
KEF LS50 WirelessII
Both active speakers except the KEF have more flexibility.

 

[dshreter]

Regarding what you said, is there a world where I could like the Genelec 8030 more than the 8330 + GLM + EQ, and a step forward could I like 8330 and unlike the 8331 even with GLM + custom EQ to my likes on both ?

8030 and 8330 will sound roughly the same until you use the EQ functionality available on 8330. I don't think there's any reason you would like the sound of 8030 better than 8330. If getting the higher end monitor meant sacrificing the subwoofer though, I would get the subwoofer. All else the same you should prefer 8331 with EQ > 8330 with EQ > 8030.

And is there a world where i could prefer a far more cheaper setup like Neumann KH 80 + sub or something like Adam T5V + sub more than 8331 + 7350 with the good EQ ? I guess it's always possible but does this scenario already happened on the forum for example ?

Not because of the sound quality. My personal preference is that for a computer speaker I like a more compact speaker and they can leave more space for your computer monitors. But that's an ergonomics issue not sound.

I don't know how it works with Neumann room EQ though, do you need a running software to EQ them or do they work like Genelec speakers ?

That's true for the Neumann DSP speakers, either the KH 80 DSP or by pairing Neumann KH 750 DSP with KH80/120/310. They don't need software running simultaneously.

 

[mkt]

JBL 705P! Outstanding speakers
Or
KEF LS50 WirelessII
Both active speakers except the KEF have more flexibility.

There are a lot of good (measuring) speakers including these that you would probably enjoy. And it sounds like you cannot listen in person. That being the case, I think it is more than reasonable to look at subjective, second-order factors like appearance, size, reliability, convenience, connectivity, even cost.

Part of the appeal of active speakers for me is that you need one less box. Some people hate the look of Genelec's. I read up on the JBL 705P and saw reliability issues mentioned. And the KEF app didn't seem great to me. @dshreter doesn't like giant speakers on the desktop. I don't think that I could "integrate" a sub without using something like GLM. I don't want to fiddle too much with manual DSP. Maybe I want to buy from a place that is not the cheapest but has a good return policy. These are all opinions, and there are good arguments for taking the opposite sides of them. But they might impact your enjoyment as much as sound quality differences.

So I'd vote for first picking active or passive, and then choosing a speaker that measures well and matches your budget and tastes.

 

[Nicochu]

KEF LS50 WirelessII

Here's a new challenger ! Can you confirm they are DSP speaker which mean I could apply a room EQ (with adapted microphone and software, not GLM though) and so I could set the EQ settings right in the speaker, then EQ will be in place even if I listen to them with phone and bluetooth or direct native Qobuz integration for example ? If yes is it easy to find a DSP sub to pair with them ?
If i'm correct those speakers don't need DAC or preamp as I probably can drive them from my PC with wi-fi or RJ45 cables through my internet box.
My concerns with those speakers is they seem not to be built for nearfield listening, I've not read much about them yet though.

All else the same you should prefer 8331 with EQ > 8330 with EQ > 8030.

Thanks for your answers, I think I might consider 8331 + 7350 + Topping EX5 even if it exceeds a bit my initial budget. If I do so i'll buy them from Thomann and use my 30 days free return in case I don't feel the pleasure I take with them is worth ~5500€. Hope it won't be a mistake if I go on this scenario. Neumann set could be a cheaper DSP alternative indeed.

So I'd vote for first picking active or passive, and then choosing a speaker that measures well and matches your budget from the @sweetchaos lists.

That's the way I'm taking for now, thanks for your advices

Last post you talked about AES/EBU to digitally connect them without using an amp.
Do we have data on A/B listening tests between :

• PC -> USB -> DAC/PreAmp -> XLR -> XLR speaker input
• PC -> USB -> whatever AES/EBU stuff > XLR > AES/EBU input

Does full digital way from source to speaker make an audible difference ? From what i've read it can be annoying managing the sound on full digital (at least on genelec).

 

[mkt]

Last post you talked about AES/EBU to digitally connect them without using an amp.
Do we have data on A/B listening tests between :

• PC -> USB -> DAC/PreAmp -> XLR -> XLR speaker input
• PC -> USB -> whatever AES/EBU stuff > XLR > AES/EBU input

Does full digital way from source to speaker make an audible difference ? From what i've read it can be annoying managing the sound on full digital (at least on genelec).

The AES/EBU input comment is for the 8330 and 8331. I have not seen any measurement of the difference. There is something attractive about removing an A/D conversion step, which might contribute to bias in sighted comparisons.

A volume control is definitely important. I like something physical and use either a DAC with volume control or this with GLM

9310B Wired Volume Controller - Genelec.com

The Genelec 9310B Volume Controller provides stylish wired volume control for all SAM studio monitors connected to the GLM Network Adapter.

www.genelec.com

 

[Nicochu]

The AES/EBU input comment is for the 8330 and 8331. I have not seen any measurement of the difference. There is something attractive about removing an A/D conversion step, which might contribute to bias in sighted comparisons.

A volume control is definitely important. I like something physical and use either a DAC with volume control or this with GLM

If I go on full digital I need an AES/EBU DAC right ? I guess this is more expensive than regular XLR DAC especially if I want bluetooth In capability.
If i'm correct I think I'll start with mainstream and cheaper digital > analog > digital then I could be considering full digital later on if measurements and listening tests tend to say it improves the listening experience.

 

[Killingbeans]

If I go on full digital I need an AES/EBU DAC right ?

It won't be a DAC (Digital to Analog Converter). AES/EBU is the balanced PRO version of S/PDIF. You need an adaptor or a bridge.

 

[dshreter]

It won't be a DAC (Digital to Analog Converter). AES/EBU is the balanced PRO version of S/PDIF. You need an adaptor or a bridge.

Or just use S/PDIF which will work just fine in a desktop setup by just getting the right cable.

 

[jim33]

on your point about professional monitors vs audiophile speakers. In my experience there is a difference between the two types. However, in general when you move up in to better speakers in general you just start to hear more problems with poor quality source material which can make some things less enjoyable to listen to. But , when you do find really good material it sounds really good

 

[Steve Dallas]

on your point about professional monitors vs audiophile speakers. In my experience there is a difference between the two types. However, in general when you move up in to better speakers in general you just start to hear more problems with poor quality source material which can make some things less enjoyable to listen to. But , when you do find really good material it sounds really good

This is true.

I would add that many people find studio monitors "dull and boring," because they are accustomed to the hyped sound of audiophile speakers. Inaccurate frequency response can sound "exciting" if the peaks are in certain frequency ranges. EQ those same speakers to be accurate, and they will sound "dull and boring" as well. Some people never make the adjustment, which is fine, as long as they are aware of it and honest with themselves.

 

[bud947]

Here's a new challenger ! Can you confirm they are DSP speaker which mean I could apply a room EQ (with adapted microphone and software, not GLM though) and so I could set the EQ settings right in the speaker, then EQ will be in place even if I listen to them with phone and bluetooth or direct native Qobuz integration for example ? If yes is it easy to find a DSP sub to pair with them ?
If i'm correct those speakers don't need DAC or preamp as I probably can drive them from my PC with wi-fi or RJ45 cables through my internet box.
My concerns with those speakers is they seem not to be built for nearfield listening, I've not read much about them yet though.


Thanks for your answers, I think I might consider 8331 + 7350 + Topping EX5 even if it exceeds a bit my initial budget. If I do so i'll buy them from Thomann and use my 30 days free return in case I don't feel the pleasure I take with them is worth ~5500€. Hope it won't be a mistake if I go on this scenario. Neumann set could be a cheaper DSP alternative indeed.


That's the way I'm taking for now, thanks for your advices

Last post you talked about AES/EBU to digitally connect them without using an amp.
Do we have data on A/B listening tests between :

• PC -> USB -> DAC/PreAmp -> XLR -> XLR speaker input
• PC -> USB -> whatever AES/EBU stuff > XLR > AES/EBU input

Does full digital way from source to speaker make an audible difference ? From what i've read it can be annoying managing the sound on full digital (at least on genelec).

Hi,

My advice (but keep in mind that I don't have the knowledge of many on this forum) would be to not overthink your system especially if your goal is simply listening enjoyment on your desktop.

Start by listing your "audiophile" needs :
- What is your primary source of listening ? Analog ? Chromecast/Airplay ? Bluetooth ? PC ?
- What is your main listening position distance to speakers ? Nearfield speakers may work for midfield but not necessarily the other way (bigger speakers usually means longer distance)
- How do enjoy your music ? critical/detailed listening ? warm and less resolving but more "pleasing" but still neutral ?
- Would you need strong low end abilities (for movies or gaming ?) or are you okay with less bass output
- Do you listen to headphone on a regular basis ?
etc...

As others said a system with 2 speakers + 1 sub should be sufficient for a desktop setting. I also agree with them that you don't need to go for more expensive studio monitors as your room is not treated and you'll not use them as an audio professional. But it is critical for sub+speakers to blend through a good EQ solution.

I would recommend :
- speakers : Kali IN-5 v2 (very neutral) or Tannoy Gold 5 (on the warm side of neutral) or adam T5V (on the detailed side)
- subwoofer : Neumann KH750 with MA1 for room correction (to a neutral frequency response)
- DAC : your can keep your Topping EX5 or go for something like a ADI-2-DAC-FS to have DAC additional DAC EQ (which may be useful for "on-the-fly tune" of a neutral corrected speaker to your liking) and stable/updated firmware
- Chromecast/Airplay : Argon Audio Solo

A complete and strong system for example could be : Argon Audio SOLO -> Topping EX5 -> Neumann KH750 -> 2 x Kali IN-5 v2
Total cost ? around 2000

 

[Nicochu]

A complete and strong system for example could be : Argon Audio SOLO -> Topping EX5 -> Neumann KH750 -> 2 x Kali IN-5 v2
Total cost ? around 2000

Do you think I will feel the same overall audio quality with this than with a more expensive genelec setup ? From what i've read here it seems DSP is also important on speakers and not only on the sub, especially in a non treated room. I guess there is not a lot of good and not too expansive DSP sub but Neumann KH750 with 250W seems a bit overkill for my use no ?

I must admit I have a very good feeling with the 8331 + 7350 for now (obviously the most expansive setup, it would not be fun otherwise) but I guess it's difficult to say how better this setup is versus a 2000€ setup. From what people told me here it would be very surprising if they were sounding any worst than a cheaper setup but I guess it still can happen on some precise points. I'm still not decided though.

I will try Kef wireless 2 in a shop next week, for now they are my second prefered choice mainly because of their facility to setup and the fact I would not have a lot of new cables behind the desk, even the opposite actually . The buyer told me he has some other active speakers to make me try so I could have a good shot of different things.

I think I'm going to give the Genelec a try buying them from Thomann, listening to them a loooot on many different styles and situations as I'm going to use them several hours almost every day for a while, then use my 30 days free trial to return them if i'm not at least 95% happy with them.

I hope i'm not making a mistake on this, I know a lot of you are advising to take cheaper but I really don't want to change my setup for at least 10 years after this. I have the feeling that if I take a cheaper setup and like it, I will be tempted to buy those Genelec that hacked my brain.

 

[dominikz]

I hope i'm not making a mistake on this, I know a lot of you are advising to take cheaper but I really don't want to change my setup for at least 10 years after this. I have the feeling that if I take a cheaper setup and like it, I will be tempted to buy those Genelec that hacked my brain.

Going for the endgame from the start might be cheaper in the end, I can understand that line of reasoning.

However I guess people are advising that you also listen to well-regarded cheaper options so you have something to reference to, and based on that decide if you want to spend more on the more premium options. Unfortunately cheaper options often require a bit more work and dedication to get the best results, especially sub integration and EQ.

The good thing with the Genelec GLM-enabled setup you're looking at is that it is a pretty much all-in-one desktop solution containing mic+DSP+DAC+amp+speakers+sub, which are all part of the same product portfolio and designed to work together without too much fiddling required.
There's for sure value in that too.

Anyway, enjoy the search! Looking forward to reading your impressions once you finish your setup (whichever you end up getting)!