Yet another one post about amplifiers matching KEF LS50

[Guralex]

Greetings, community.

I've been reading ASR for a long time in the anonymous mode, and now it's my time to register and ask for some advices.
My birthday is coming soon, so I consider it as a perfect moment for my hifi setup upgrade.
At the moment I have a pair of recently bought KEF LS50 (not meta ones, but was able to find a pair of new "original" models for around 600 bucks, which I consider as a good deal), Cambridge CXA61, vinyl setup (Pro-ject debut Pro + Rega Phono) and a portable ibasso player which I connect to a coax and use as a digital source, Jamo 808 sub.

I'm pretty satisfied with a sound, generally, however there are two "problems".

1. No streaming and overall "janky" digital source: I assume the way I listen to my FLAC collection is not so optimal, as far as a DAC in my CXA is not perfect.
2. A lot of rumours around "KEF LS50 are power hungry and do not show their potential with a weak (60w/8ohm and 90/4) amlification.

My budget is around 1500-2000$ max

The problem is that I live in Ukraine, and the war conditions don't give me any chance to buy a gear properly - go to the dealer and perform several rounds of listening. "Blind" online shopping is the only option.

Speaking of the options, there are a few in my mind:

1. By a mainstream streaming amplifier (have a few options both new and used currently): Roksan Atessa, NAD M10, Hegel h95 (120 if Ill be lucky and get used one), Primare i15 prism
2. Get a decent integrated/power amp for a budget and think of dedicated streamer in a while (have no idea what to look for)
3. Get a streamer (Bluenode, cambridge mx10 etc.) and stay with Cambridge for a while.

The main question for me: does my cambridge limit a potential of LS50 really hard, or it's a pretty unobvious and debatable question?
Before the ls50's I owned KEF Q350 and had an experience of connecting them to a weak and cheap denon amp. And it sounded...bad. So now Im afraid that I have the same situation here.

Any feedback and experience from your side is very appreciated.
Peace!

 

[GM3]

Cambridge CXA61
[...]
2. A lot of rumours around "KEF LS50 are power hungry and do not show their potential with a weak (60w/8ohm and 90/4) amlification.

I remember hearing about that rumour too, and it's typically what you hear about certain speakers somewhat lacking in certain qualities (ex; Totem speakers, etc.). Not that it isn't a difficult load; from the ASR review; "The impedance chart is presented to figure out if the amplifier is "difficult" to drive and hence requires beefy amplification", but it's often more an excuse than truth. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-ls50-bookshelf-speaker-review.11144/

So maybe a new amp might help, but how much? My guess would be not that much, but I don't have any experience with that speaker... Your amp seems like a solid amp, so shouldn't be that lacking. Are you playing very loud? They'll likely never going to be bass monsters no matter what amp you throw at them.

For the 1500-2000 you mention, you could easily get a Mini DSP and a very solid sub, which is likely what this speaker was intended to be used with, or even new speakers!

But what I would try short term; play with placement. Near rear wall = bass reinforcement, so them being ported, play with moving them closer and away from the rear wall, that can make a big difference, listening position also makes a huge difference. What is your room like? Placement and room are really critical with speakers... If you can try an almost equilateral triangle with the speakers near a rear rear wall, usually a good start. But if you've got like a large-ish room and just want to fill in the entire room.. That would be another story.

Otherwise, your integrated amp seems to have pre-out, so you could also get a power amp. Something like a Behringer A800 would be well below your price point, and pro amps can you great watts/buck, same power in the audiophile world would cost you a fortune.

 

[Guralex]

I remember hearing about that rumour too, and it's typically what you hear about certain speakers somewhat lacking in certain qualities (ex; Totem speakers, etc.). Not that it isn't a difficult load; from the ASR review; "The impedance chart is presented to figure out if the amplifier is "difficult" to drive and hence requires beefy amplification", but it's often more an excuse than truth. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-ls50-bookshelf-speaker-review.11144/

So maybe a new amp might help, but how much? My guess would be not that much, but I don't have any experience with that speaker... Your amp seems like a solid amp, so shouldn't be that lacking. Are you playing very loud? They'll likely never going to be bass monsters no matter what amp you throw at them.

For the 1500-2000 you mention, you could easily get a Mini DSP and a very solid sub, which is likely what this speaker was intended to be used with, or even new speakers!

But what I would try short term; play with placement. Near rear wall = bass reinforcement, so them being ported, play with moving them closer and away from the rear wall, that can make a big difference, listening position also makes a huge difference. What is your room like? Placement and room are really critical with speakers... If you can try an almost equilateral triangle with the speakers near a rear rear wall, usually a good start. But if you've got like a large-ish room and just want to fill in the entire room.. That would be another story.

Otherwise, your integrated amp seems to have pre-out, so you could also get a power amp. Something like a Behringer A800 would be well below your price point, and pro amps can you great watts/buck, same power in the audiophile world would cost you a fortune.

Thanks for a feedback!

Speaking of bass and loudness...I don't really understand why a vast majority of audiophiles thinks that it's lacking in LS50s.
For my ears, It's pretty enough and I hook up the sub only for some classical hip-hop or other bass-heavy music
(Sincerely recommend to try some old-school rap on a vinyl, such as Dre 2001/Wu-tang/Early Eminem - the sound is amazingly reach)

As far as room placement satisfies me very much:was able to get a perfect triangle: 2m-2m-2m with the tweeters watching directly in my eyes.

Another question then: do you consider a Bluesound Node 2i (300$ used in perfect condition) as a good addition to my system? It seems to have a better DAC than my cambridge, as far as the famous BlueOS and Roon endpoint.
Will it be still a nice solution after changing my amp to something better and more expensive? Or should be considered as just a temporary wish to have a streamer "here and now"?

Sorry for a dumb questions - I'm pretty new to this world of "сonscious hifi"
Verry appreciate your feedback.

 

[bodhi]

Thanks for a feedback!

Speaking of bass and loudness...I don't really understand why a vast majority of audiophiles thinks that it's lacking in LS50s.

It's mostly about what kind of bass you like. LS50 and at least the two smaller R-series speakers have tight and technical bass, but they are missing both the depth and tactile response you get with larger speakers and/or subwoofers. I'm sometimes running my R5s without subs and all the bass notes are there and it doesn't sound bad at all, it's just that it sounds thinner, strictly worse than with subs.

Another question then: do you consider a Bluesound Node 2i (300$ used in perfect condition) as a good addition to my system? It seems to have a better DAC than my cambridge, as far as the famous BlueOS and Roon endpoint.
Will it be still a nice solution after changing my amp to something better and more expensive? Or should be considered as just a temporary wish to have a streamer "here and now"?

You are probably not getting any audible improvement in sound either by getting the streamer or the amp. If you want a streamer then the Node or Wiim pro are great choices.

 

[Guralex]

It's mostly about what kind of bass you like. LS50 and at least the two smaller R-series speakers have tight and technical bass, but they are missing both the depth and tactile response you get with larger speakers and/or subwoofers. I'm sometimes running my R5s without subs and all the bass notes are there and it doesn't sound bad at all, it's just that it sounds thinner, strictly worse than with subs.



You are probably not getting any audible improvement in sound either by getting the streamer or the amp. If you want a streamer then the Node or Wiim pro are great choices.

Thanks!

I'll try to find a good deal on BlueSound Node 2i.
If so - it will definitely be a quality-of-life improvement.

Was also thinking of Roksan Atessa, as another AB amplifier with BlueOS streamer integrated in.
Have a nice chance to pick it for 1100$ (Blue OS + a little bit more power + phono)
Found a post on ASR that describes some problems with hush so...it seems not so obvious

Will also appreciate a feedback about it

p.s. hate this theorycrafting with no possibility to test it before buying. What a time to be alive

 

[GM3]

Nice setup! Hard wood floors; adding a rug might help. Do the panels behind the speakers help a lot? For room treatment, the 1st reflections are typically what needs to be addressed; so side walls, then floor. But behind the speaker... I'd think that it might reduce rear port output, but I don't think that's what you want to reduce as it's what helps produce low end...

Yeah your 'end' sound, imho, is something like 65% speakers, 30% room/placement, 5% rest (mostly amp & placebo). So given your amp is likely good enough, changing it might improve that last 5% placebo. So yeah placement is free, then it's improving the room, then speakers, then the rest.. So, minimizing reverberation = cleaner sound, which sounds like is what you're after.

Sub(s) also help by reducing the load on the speaker; instead of reproducing low end & mids, low end which causes woofer excursion, they just have mids to reproduce; so can typically play louder & cleaner. Even helps the amp out. DSP also opens up realm of EQ, which can have a great effect; ex; by just correcting their FR you can improve sound by quite a bit.

 

[AaronJ]

I agree with the previous suggestion that for your budget you could add a MiniDSP with Dirac Live and a good sub, and that will bring a more significant improvement than anything else you could do without spending big bucks on a speaker upgrade. I can say without a doubt that my main system will never again be without some form of DSP.

 

[Digital_Thor]

Sell them and buy the active version?

 

[Guralex]

Nice setup! Hard wood floors; adding a rug might help. Do the panels behind the speakers help a lot? For room treatment, the 1st reflections are typically what needs to be addressed; so side walls, then floor. But behind the speaker... I'd think that it might reduce rear port output, but I don't think that's what you want to reduce as it's what helps produce low end...

Yeah your 'end' sound, imho, is something like 65% speakers, 30% room/placement, 5% rest (mostly amp & placebo). So given your amp is likely good enough, changing it might improve that last 5% placebo. So yeah placement is free, then it's improving the room, then speakers, then the rest.. So, minimizing reverberation = cleaner sound, which sounds like is what you're after.

Sub(s) also help by reducing the load on the speaker; instead of reproducing low end & mids, low end which causes woofer excursion, they just have mids to reproduce; so can typically play louder & cleaner. Even helps the amp out. DSP also opens up realm of EQ, which can have a great effect; ex; by just correcting their FR you can improve sound by quite a bit.

being honest, the panels behind the speakers are mostly decorative, I would say

I've ordered bass traps and placed them in the corners

Happy to say - they work just REALLY GOOD. The room has concrete walls and the resonance on 75 and 200HZ is very audible and obvious, so those bad boys reduce it just fine.

The best investment of 100$ in hifi yet))

As far as I got 2 free extra panels left - decided to place them behind the ports just to be able to move the speakers closer to the wall without any worries.
Combined with a SUB it helped to make bass response a little bit clearer. But, again, the difference is more like homeopathic imo.

For the question of "reduce the load on speakers by adding sub" I suppose, It doesnt work in my case, as the Cambridge CXA doesnt have a configurable crossover and just passes the mono signal to sub out. So the speakers continue playing a full range

P.S. In front of the speakers i have a huuge sofa that, I suppose, works just like the foam panel. Its height is just a little big higher than speakers + stands
I tried to place some foam on top - nothing changed

 

[Guralex]

I agree with the previous suggestion that for your budget you could add a MiniDSP with Dirac Live and a good sub, and that will bring a more significant improvement than anything else you could do without spending big bucks on a speaker upgrade. I can say without a doubt that my main system will never again be without some form of DSP.

Unfortunately, miniDSP will not work for me as my Cambridge does have Pre-out, but not Power Amp - in.
So will consider it only if moving to another amp (or Preamp+Poweramp solution)

 

[Angsty]

+1 on a Bluesound Node

I have the LS50s that I run with a 100W Bryston integrated (B100-SST). I don’t find the LS50s to be too power hungry if not overdriven. I have driven them with a thrift-store Sony receiver.

Considered the NAD C389?

C 389 - NAD Electronics

The NAD C 389 HybridDigital DAC amplifier can serve as the cornerstone of a high-performance audio system now – and for decades to come.

nadelectronics.com

 

[Guralex]

+1 on a Bluesound Node

I have the LS50s that I run with a 100W Bryston integrated (B100-SST). I don’t find the LS50s to be too power hungry if not overdriven. I have driven them with a thrift-store Sony receiver.

Considered the NAD C389?

C 389 - NAD Electronics

The NAD C 389 HybridDigital DAC amplifier can serve as the cornerstone of a high-performance audio system now – and for decades to come.

nadelectronics.com

I've had a chance to listen a bunch of NADs around 600-800 $ and considered them as "fat and punchy, but without any stunning details/nuances"
However, I've heard that their D-class amps are pretty good, such as M10.
Thanks for the suggestion, will figure out if thery're available in my country.

Speaking of "power hunger", I'm not sure if it's possible to measure somehow in home conditions. And, what's more important, define if the problem of unsatisfying sound is caused by power itself, not any other aspect of amp tech characteristics.
What I've noticed is a set of patterns:
1. More dynamics = less overall clarity
2. Bass-heavy = less clarity in mids

Those problems are really not so critical, so I've got a little paranioa that I interpret the things I read on forums to my perception of music and drive myself into a dead end)

 

[Peterinvan]

Sell them and buy the active version?

LS50W (first edition):
I auditioned both the LS50 and the LS50W before I settled on the LS50W.

I found that both LS50s seem to "come alive" at a certain point on the volume dial ... yes they like to be played loud. Those stiff surrounds need ample power to get a good "grip" on the woofer.

In the store, the LS50 demo was driven by a 100+ watt NAD amp. The LS50W have 250 watts (class D) in each speaker, as well separate amps for the tweeter, plus excellent DSP to correct the timing, and sharpen the image.

 

[Angsty]

I've had a chance to listen a bunch of NADs around 600-800 $ and considered them as "fat and punchy, but without any stunning details/nuances"
However, I've heard that their D-class amps are pretty good, such as M10.
Thanks for the suggestion, will figure out if thery're available in my country.

Speaking of "power hunger", I'm not sure if it's possible to measure somehow in home conditions. And, what's more important, define if the problem of unsatisfying sound is caused by power itself, not any other aspect of amp tech characteristics.
What I've noticed is a set of patterns:
1. More dynamics = less overall clarity
2. Bass-heavy = less clarity in mids

Those problems are really not so critical, so I've got a little paranioa that I interpret the things I read on forums to my perception of music and drive myself into a dead end)

I used my LS50s with a NAD C272 with excellent results before moving to the Bryston for an integrated with a better preamp and phono than my 30-year old NAD 1600.

The power amps were equivalent in normal use while the NAD had more power output capability, which I did not need to use for the LS50s.

 

[babar]

Hi,

just wanted to use this thread for a similar question. I have the LS50's connected to Denon AVC-X3700H in Pure Direct.
the sound chain is: DMP-A6 -> HoloSpring -> HoloBliss -> Denon (using RCA)
or alternatively DMP-A6 -> Denon (using Coaxial)

Should I change my amp? and if so what to? budget is also similar at around $2,000
I know I need to increase the heigh of my speakers and open to suggestions. I am using them as you can tell as near field monitors.

 

[DSJR]

Thanks for a feedback!

Speaking of bass and loudness...I don't really understand why a vast majority of audiophiles thinks that it's lacking in LS50s.
For my ears, It's pretty enough and I hook up the sub only for some classical hip-hop or other bass-heavy music
(Sincerely recommend to try some old-school rap on a vinyl, such as Dre 2001/Wu-tang/Early Eminem - the sound is amazingly reach)

As far as room placement satisfies me very much:was able to get a perfect triangle: 2m-2m-2m with the tweeters watching directly in my eyes.
View attachment 274244

Another question then: do you consider a Bluesound Node 2i (300$ used in perfect condition) as a good addition to my system? It seems to have a better DAC than my cambridge, as far as the famous BlueOS and Roon endpoint.
Will it be still a nice solution after changing my amp to something better and more expensive? Or should be considered as just a temporary wish to have a streamer "here and now"?

Sorry for a dumb questions - I'm pretty new to this world of "сonscious hifi"
Verry appreciate your feedback.

Have you tried a thick rug on the floor in front of the TV and speakers? Maybe even pulling the speakers a little further from the wall behind them to slightly improve perceived 'air' and 'space' in a fairly forward-balanced speaker?

Apologies for this intrusion, but my dealer hat appeared from nowhere and it made me ask...

As for amps, I daren't suggest too much, but would a Yamaha 701/801 do and can you obtain one fairly easily? Not sure if the dac in these is really that good (I've had mixed reports, admittedly subjective) but there's plenty of clean power I gather (I've sadly not heard one).

Apologies, I don't want to muddy the waters here, but the picture set me off on one

 

[Ron Texas]

@Guralex if you don't have a calibrated microphone then buy one and do some room EQ on your system. Usually, system dissatisfaction is fixed with EQ and rarely will a change in amplification help. A MiniDSP will work and will provide EQ. It has inputs for analog (vinyl) USB and Toslink. It outputs analog audio which can go to any an aux input on the Cambridge. This also bypasses the DAC in the Cambridge. I don't know if your Ibasso has either USB or Toslink out. Coax, is real unusual these days. There might be a way to convert coax to toslink cheaply or you could find something else cheap (used notebook) which streams USB. Actually, you could do EQ on the notebook a variety of ways, but it will not help with your vinyl, hence the need for a MiniDSP.

 

[Angsty]

Hi,

just wanted to use this thread for a similar question. I have the LS50's connected to Denon AVC-X3700H in Pure Direct.
the sound chain is: DMP-A6 -> HoloSpring -> HoloBliss -> Denon (using RCA)
or alternatively DMP-A6 -> Denon (using Coaxial)

Should I change my amp? and if so what to? budget is also similar at around $2,000
I know I need to increase the heigh of my speakers and open to suggestions. I am using them as you can tell as near field monitors.

I can’t really say that you need to change your amp, but I can note that ASR testing of AV multichannel amps has generally shown that they perform poorer compared to many newer Class D or Class H stereo amps. In near-field, it would seem that a high SINAD amp may be warranted for clean sound, if you perceive that noise is a problem.

 

[babar]

I can’t really say that you need to change your amp, but I can note that ASR testing of AV multichannel amps has generally shown that they perform poorer compared to many newer Class D or Class H stereo amps. In near-field, it would seem that a high SINAD amp may be warranted for clean sound, if you perceive that noise is a problem.

thanks. any recommendations?

 

[Angsty]

thanks. any recommendations?

The NAD C399 seems to have replaced the C389 I referenced earlier in this thread.

NAD C399 Review - The Absolute Sound

Paul Seydor provides an in-depth evaluation of the NAD C399, an amazing bargain in electronics. Just add speakers.

www.theabsolutesound.com