Yet another Neumann KH150 vs KH310 thread, or any other speaker, for my room and goals

[viktorapo]

I'm probably the wrong person to ask that question. I've experienced/read about so many QC issues with neumann hardware and MA1 software that I can't see myself buying any of their products unless it's a 2-for-1 deal so I basically have a spare for free. Their support is no charmer, either.

I also wouldn't wait to buy something that doesn't exist yet, especially the way supply chains are these days. So the KH310 II and 350 are non-starters for me. Finally, subwoofer integration is not easy and if this is for production purposes I'd want 2 subs to run in stereo.

Looking at the photos of your studio, I'm guessing either you do this for a living or would very much like to. With the type of $ you're describing, i'd be looking at Genelec 8351B. Genelec support is the best I've ever dealt with which will be important if you have any issues interrupting your business, room correction is a $250 add-on and much easier to use than MA1.

Upgrade choices would be 8361A or D&D 8C Studio. support is a little slower than genelec but I have had very good experience with them overall. AsciLab C8C would be high on my list, but they're difficult to attain for the foreseeable future and theyre too new as a company for us to know how well they can support globally

I dont do it for living but have some small income which cant even justify these prices. I produce and release music for myself on other labels, maybe will have mine some day as well. I love it, its my passion and wouldve been the job of mine if i had more guts to risk it. Those genelecs are waaaay above my budget. The Neumann setup already kind of is but its something I can swallow

 

[viktorapo]

Maybe you need some big name speakers to impress customers. In this case just let me know and I will stop mentioning the Palmer speakers.
Meanwhile, I want to give you a little perspective on the KH750 output compared to the Orbit 11.

The KH750 has a single 10" woofer in a 48l brutto cabinet with 20kg total weight.
A pair of Orbits has 4 x 8" woofer in 37l brutto cabinet with 28kg total weight.

Based on the total membrane area, the woofer of one KH750 must move 2.5 times more than the 4 Orbit woofers for the same SPL.
An Orbit woofer can probably do about +/-10mm. This means for the same maximum SPL, KH750 requires about +/-25mm excursion.
Although the KH750 woofer is described as "ultra long excursion", it's still questionable if it can really do such excursion.
This analysis is for maximum SPL. So THD will approach 80-100% for KH750 as well as the Orbits.

Looking at the Neumann specs for KH750, we see that they are for half space.
So we have to reduce by 6dB to compare to the Measurements of the Orbits.

Next interesting point is that they claim <0.5% THD at 95dB SPL above 70Hz.
Looking at their own THD plot, it reaches 0.5% THD (-46dB) only above 250Hz.
Same issue with their max SPL spec of 105dB@3%THD averaged over 50-100Hz.
The plot shows below 100dB SPL.

Let's assume in their favor that the plots are unechoic, which may be the reason for these discrepancies.
Still I don't see 105dB even with 6dB room gain from half space measurement, but it's close.

For 10% THD a single Orbit speaker produces 82dB SPL at 30Hz and a pair 88dB. KH750 plot shows 94dB at 30Hz/10%THD.
This would give the KH750 a 6dB advantage over a pair of Orbits with relatively clean bass.

Note that I do consider 10% THD clean for low bass. And I question the use of ultra low THD subwoofers for mixing.
This would translate poorly to most normal speakers which often produce much higher THD than 10%.

From this little analysis you should understand that a pair of Orbits will get close to a single KH750 when it comes to maximum bass output.
A 6dB advantage, based on manufacturer specs, is still an advantage but it will not be as high as you might have thought.
As I have a pair of Orbits, I can report that their bass makes a few things shake in my room which is quite a bit larger than your room.

As you are coming from HS7, the Orbits will be a really huge improvement over your current setup.
And you may find that you don't require a sub at all as your expectations may actually not be very high considering where you come from.
In case you still want a sub, you will have quite some money left compared to Neumann/Genelec setups.

In addition, cardioid + coaxial dispersion characteristics of the Orbits can help to reduce reflections from your table.
In your setup, table reflections will be the worst and vertical dispersion becomes an important factor.
Only large Genelecs like 8361A come close to the vertical disperson control of the Orbits.

Palmer gives you 5 years warranty. And with their low price you could simply buy and sell another pair to avoid any delay in case of defects.
So if you don't need big name speakers, the Orbits are a very good alternative.

View attachment 523537

Left: KH 750 DSP/AES67 Harmonic Distortion at 95 dB SPL in 1 m (Blue: THD, Green: 2nd harmonic, Red: 3rd harmonic)​

Right: KH 750 DSP/AES67 Maximum SPL at 1m (Red: 10% THD, Green: 3% THD, Blue: 1% THD)​

View attachment 523536View attachment 523538

Thanks for the input and no, I am not impressing anyone. I live in the balkans in non EU country and Palmers are not an option, was waiting on info until yesterday but no distributer can ship em here. If I order them I will have to pay around 900EUR more in taxes and costs. On top of that, if something goes bad, its again PITA to send em bad, trust me, its really complicated here. Neumanns on the other hand have local distributor.

Thank you for all your input on those !

 

[illusonic]

Neumanns on the other hand have local distributor

That's indeed a good reason to go with Neumann. Too bad - your setup is basically ideal for the Palmers. Note that these are currently not available anywhere (sold out) and as they're new to the market, distribution may improve once they are back in stock.

Based on available measurement data, I would choose the KH310 over the KH150 if you want to go w/o sub. I only listened to the predecessor (Klein & Hummel O 300), which was a very good speaker that sounded basically the same as their flagship model (O 500 with ATC mid dome) when kept within SPL limits. Chances are that you won't need a sub with KH310, either. You're in a small room with the speakers close to you, directly on the rear wall, close side walls and large desk. My estimate is that this should be good for >12dB room gain. KH310 is -6dB at 30Hz so you should be able to get flat to 30Hz.

The KH150s just don't reach low enough to go without sub in my opinion. And you can't boost them below their bass-reflex resonance. Once you add KH750 or another sub, this will be a very capable setup as IMD should also come down once the woofer is relieved from sub-bass duty. And room EQ for additional 250€ doesn't seem a bad deal either. You could still use a sub from another brand to keep cost down. Just need to fiddle with integration by yourself.

Can't really say much about reliebilty of the Neumanns. Only comments would be that visibility of defects in forums gets up with the number of units sold. And they are selling lot's of the smaller Neumann speakers. In addition, their long time on the market (KH310) would make me think that there is no reliability issue with these. Otherwise Neumann would have fixed it by now.

 

[viktorapo]

That's indeed a good reason to go with Neumann. Too bad - your setup is basically ideal for the Palmers. Note that these are currently not available anywhere (sold out) and as they're new to the market, distribution may improve once they are back in stock.

Based on available measurement data, I would choose the KH310 over the KH150 if you want to go w/o sub. I only listened to the predecessor (Klein & Hummel O 300), which was a very good speaker that sounded basically the same as their flagship model (O 500 with ATC mid dome) when kept within SPL limits. Chances are that you won't need a sub with KH310, either. You're in a small room with the speakers close to you, directly on the rear wall, close side walls and large desk. My estimate is that this should be good for >12dB room gain. KH310 is -6dB at 30Hz so you should be able to get flat to 30Hz.

The KH150s just don't reach low enough to go without sub in my opinion. And you can't boost them below their bass-reflex resonance. Once you add KH750 or another sub, this will be a very capable setup as IMD should also come down once the woofer is relieved from sub-bass duty. And room EQ for additional 250€ doesn't seem a bad deal either. You could still use a sub from another brand to keep cost down. Just need to fiddle with integration by yourself.

Can't really say much about reliebilty of the Neumanns. Only comments would be that visibility of defects in forums gets up with the number of units sold. And they are selling lot's of the smaller Neumann speakers. In addition, their long time on the market (KH310) would make me think that there is no reliability issue with these. Otherwise Neumann would have fixed it by now.

yeah, but the kh310 seems like less SPL capable which bugs me out :/ and with the KH150, i can buy them with the MA-1 setup now, have a massive upgrade over the Yamaha HS7s and then add the woofer in few months when I save some more cash. I think that setup with their measurement system and room eq wizard would be better then the KH310 on their own which I am afraid they will distort early :/ Its really tough also because I cant hear any of these and I need to go for a cold buy

 

[tifune]

yeah, but the kh310 seems like less SPL capable which bugs me out :/ and with the KH150, i can buy them with the MA-1 setup now, have a massive upgrade over the Yamaha HS7s and then add the woofer in few months when I save some more cash. I think that setup with their measurement system and room eq wizard would be better then the KH310 on their own which I am afraid they will distort early :/ Its really tough also because I cant hear any of these and I need to go for a cold buy

If it helps at all, one thing I can say is the KH150 is the best 2-way monitor I've ever heard. It has aspects I don't prefer compared to genelec, but those are merely personal preferences. It is objectively exceptional. Neumann as a company puts me off, but as long as you have a warranty through a reliable reseller you're probably ok.

 

[viktorapo]

If it helps at all, one thing I can say is the KH150 is the best 2-way monitor I've ever heard. It has aspects I don't prefer compared to genelec, but those are merely personal preferences. It is objectively exceptional. Neumann as a company puts me off, but as long as you have a warranty through a reliable reseller you're probably ok.

What is putting you off? I have a local Genelec shop as well. Only issue is that the model youve mentioned is waaay to expensive. And yeah I might have a thing for Neumann

 

[Chr1]

I am not sure why Neumann as a company puts you off. The issues with the KH80 are the only negative I can think of personally.

I think that the KH310s would be plenty loud enough for you. Particularly in the room you describe. Their bass response is far better than the KH150 which, to me is a pretty important factor. I've had KH310s for several years now and am loving them. I get that they are a slightly older design, but to me that's a positive. It's a very high quality time proven product. They have been shown to be super reliable and are still one of the go-to three way monitors in pro studios around the world. The Mk2s, when they finally appear, will doubtless have some improvements. However, I suspect that they will also be significantly more expensive too. My 2c.

 

[viktorapo]

I am not sure why Neumann as a company puts you off. The issues with the KH80 are the only negative I can think of personally.

I think that the KH310s would be plenty loud enough for you. Particularly in the room you describe. Their bass response is far better than the KH150 which, to me is a pretty important factor. I've had KH310s for several years now and am loving them. I get that they are a slightly older design, but to me that's a positive. It's a very high quality time proven product. They have been shown to be super reliable and are still one of the go-to three way monitors in pro studios around the world. The Mk2s, when they finally appear, will doubtless have some improvements. However, I suspect that they will also be significantly more expensive too. My 2c.

however, its not a direct comparison as i realised in the journey. so its a kh310 vs kh150 + kh750. i believe the latter would give me much more power, less distortion and overall more stable bass and room alongside the MA-1 tool. The kh310 mk2 is rumoured, and will have DSP of course but I cannot wait it any more

 

[tifune]

What is putting you off? I have a local Genelec shop as well. Only issue is that the model youve mentioned is waaay to expensive. And yeah I might have a thing for Neumann

Neumann monitors tend to sound "darker" than genelec. Genelec 2-ways are quite good too, but again I'd be hard pressed to pay NiB pricing for models 10+ years old.

Here's a quick illustration

Post in thread 'Neumann KH150' https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/neumann-kh150.33454/post-2187216

 

[tifune]

I am not sure why Neumann as a company puts you off. The issues with the KH80 are the only negative I can think of personally.

MA1 bugs, customer support experience, unusually high (compared to other vendors) reports of QC issues in forums. And yes, I'm on my 3rd pair of KH80s luckily all under warranty

 

[Chr1]

I am curious. Other than the reliability issues with the KH80, what QC issues are there?

Haven't heard of any myself personally.

 

[illusonic]

Just realized that I cut away a little too much of the KH310 max SPL trace. The actual Sound & Recording data starts slightly below 50Hz.
So here is a corrected version. Note that it doesn't change my previous conclusions.

KH150 vs. KH310 is very close even in the small frequency range (approx. 40-60Hz) that KH150 shows more output due to bass-reflex enclosure.
Outside that small frequency range, KH310 has higher SPL and this will result in cleaner midrange.
Adding a sub to KH150 will not change midrange THD and at best gets IMD closer to KH310.
I still see KH310 as superior to KH150.

Finally, note that Neumann has 1/3% max SPL plots for both speakers on their website.
Added them below for your comparison.

Overlay:

 

[viktorapo]

Just realized that I cut away a little too much of the KH310 max SPL trace. The actual Sound & Recording data starts slightly below 50Hz.
So here is a corrected version. Note that it doesn't change my previous conclusions.

KH150 vs. KH310 is very close even in the small frequency range (approx. 40-60Hz) that KH150 shows more output due to bass-reflex enclosure.
Outside that small frequency range, KH310 has higher SPL and this will result in cleaner midrange.
Adding a sub to KH150 will not change midrange THD and at best gets IMD closer to KH310.
I still see KH310 as superior to KH150.

Finally, note that Neumann has 1/3% max SPL plots for both speakers on their website.
Added them below for your comparison.

View attachment 523584

View attachment 523589

Yeah thanks. Now this is kind of new to me and proves youre right, even with the woofer added to the kh150. Seems like the kh310 can play higher spl with less distortion actually. While many people online speak different :/

Its not an easy decision def

 

[viktorapo]

@illusonic i've definitely set to the KH310. now my only doubt is if i should wait the MK2 version with DSP. its gonna be announced/come out this year most likely but with all delays possible and stock, etc. might take me a year or so until able to obtain it, which is not a short period of time

 

[illusonic]

It seems questionable to me if Neumann's IIR (?) EQ beats Dirac's FIR EQ. The latter also improves the time domain, which increases image focus in my experience (I use it at home). An advantage for the Neumannn is that they know the actual speaker. So their algo may make more informed decisions when it comes to boosting certain frequencies.
For MK2 Neumann will probably improve the whole speaker the best they can. DSP may not be the only update. If that's worth waiting for is up to you.
One option could be to improve your current setup while waiting. Maybe buy/build one or two subs and add some EQ. My best guess is that you are currently mainly lacking bass.

 

[LTig]

@illusonic i've definitely set to the KH310. now my only doubt is if i should wait the MK2 version with DSP. its gonna be announced/come out this year most likely but with all delays possible and stock, etc. might take me a year or so until able to obtain it, which is not a short period of time

You can also wait until the mk2 is announced and then get the mk1 at a reduced sell out price. I do own the K&H O300D since 2004 and it's still a very good speaker. The biggest improvement of the KH310 over the O300D was some 7dB higher SPL capability of the woofer. Since I use a sub (Genelec 7060b) I felt no itch to upgrade, and probably neither for a KH310 mk2.

 

[Chr1]

Indeed. Reckon this is what I would do.
There may be very good deals on the current model, when the Mk2 is released. And it shouldn't be long now.