Yes, Virginia, well measuring amps and dacs do all sound the same! (Feat. DMS and JDS Labs)

[Pugsly]

Hi All,
I ran across the following video and thought people might find it interesting and/or amusing

In it, DMS who admits an appreciation for some more 'subjective' stuff like tube amplifiers and says that he claims to be able to hear the difference between some DACs and amplifiers, nonetheless drops some truth bombs:
(1) All of the recent superlatively measuring equipment (the review is for the E50/L50 but he mentions a number of different things including the A90, D30, A30pro, JDS atom in a different review, etc. sound identical. Not similar. The. Same.
(2) Many more expensive amplifiers do sound different (even in pleasing ways) because they don't measure as well
(3) We have amplifiers and DACs now that measure far beyond the scope of the human hearing
(4) Pushing the numbers further is 'cool' - but at a certain point, why? It is getting useless to review this equipment
(5) He outright preemptively mocks subjectivists who insist that they could hear the difference between these things blah blah blah, saying 'Sure you can guy. I'm sure you can see invisible color wave-lengths'

So, dude is now bored (i.e., he finally reached the same point Peter Aczel reached a couple decades ago when Aczel decided to give up reviewing electronics for the most part, although allowing some interest in that new exciting class D that showed promise...) Conclusion: if you want accurate, you can now get it cheap, and if so should choose on the basis of looks and features...
Now, where have I heard that before?

But this makes the question all the more pressing that I raised in the other thread - where can JDS go now? Interview w John Seaber- What do ppl think is next for JDS Labs?

 

[DanielT]

Well he likes colored sound. He can do that, if he wants to. The problem is more that the coloring he likes does not have to be liked by another person. However, the neutrals he mentions in the video (straight frequency respons 20-20 kHz, inaudible distortion and noise) then everyone knows what they are getting.

If you want to color the sound then EQa afterwards. Add extra distortion afterwards?. I do not know how to do that, if you want to color the sound that is. Maybe it can be done in a simple way? In that case, you can tell him in the video about it so he can buy Topping and then color the sound of them and make them sound like his more expensive stuff. Then he should be happy. That will save him some money.

 

[Pugsly]

Daniel,
In principle I absolutely agree, and the question then becomes if/how this is possible, when and what kinds of coloration are desirable, and how they can be reproduced. If the distortion he liked were entirely unique to him, that would be weird since then how would a company that supplies just that profile ever sell their product, gain traction and support from a market, etc. (except on the basis of placebo, etc.) It is trivially easy (and free) to use vst plugins to simply add eq, second/other order distortion, reverb, etc. but with respect to the latter two, is this all that would be needed? Are there other effects, specific kinds/profiles of distortion, etc. that we have yet to clearly delineate (precisely because/insofar as the assumed aim was transparency?) I know that I don't know enough to answer these questions, or even have an informed opinion... but would love to learn more from those here who do!

 

[Galliardist]

He needs better resolving speakers to imagine differences with, like real reviewers do

Seriously - if he thinks he prefers coloured systems, he would benefit from some blind preference testing of the boring stuff against the expensive alternatives. The numbers suggest he would really prefer the more accurate components, though you can never be absolutely certain.

I'm reminded of the threads here asking why more "high end" products aren't reviewed by Amir or on ASR. We've reached a new paradigm, where these "boring" products, dedicated to proper playback, ARE the new "high end".

Once we get that idea (it hasn't fully sunk in with me yet, obviously, despite being true) - it means that some of our key problems are solved, and we can move on to what is really relevant in the pursuit of high fidelity. Or we can even jump off at the point of achieving good fidelity and just listen to music!

 

[DanielT]

He needs better resolving speakers to imagine differences with, like real reviewers do

Seriously - if he thinks he prefers coloured systems, he would benefit from some blind preference testing of the boring stuff against the expensive alternatives. The numbers suggest he would really prefer the more accurate components, though you can never be absolutely certain.

I'm reminded of the threads here asking why more "high end" products aren't reviewed by Amir or on ASR. We've reached a new paradigm, where these "boring" products, dedicated to proper playback, ARE the new "high end".

Once we get that idea (it hasn't fully sunk in with me yet, obviously, despite being true) - it means that some of our key problems are solved, and we can move on to what is really relevant in the pursuit of high fidelity. Or we can even jump off at the point of achieving good fidelity and just listen to music!

Well, that makes it easier. DAC for example, choose it with the features (plus service, guarantees, build quality). If you only aim for the best sound, bang for the buck, as little as possible there on DAC. This one for 9 $ seems very good:

Review: Apple vs Google USB-C Headphone Adapters

This is a review, detailed measurements and comparison of Apple's USB-C adapter to the current and last version of Google Pixel headphone adapters. The Apple adapter costs just $9 including one day shipping for free. The Google dongle costs $12. Not that any of these are large by any stretch...

audiosciencereview.com

Then the money where it really makes a difference, on the speakers and fix the acoustics in the listening room and PEQ (via measuring microphone).

An amplifier with many clean watts is not so stupid to have, see my next post.

 

[DanielT]

Daniel,
In principle I absolutely agree, and the question then becomes if/how this is possible, when and what kinds of coloration are desirable, and how they can be reproduced. If the distortion he liked were entirely unique to him, that would be weird since then how would a company that supples just that profile ever sell their produce, gain traction and support from a market, etc. (except on the basis of placebo, etc.) It is trivially easy (and free) to use vst plugins to simply add eq, second/other order distortion, reverb, etc. but with respect to the latter two, is this all that would be needed? Are there other effects, specific kinds/profiles of distortion, etc. that we have yet to clearly delineate (precisely because/insofar as the assumed aim was transparency?) I know that I don't know enough to answer these questions, or even have an informed opinion... but would love to learn more from those here who do!

I don't know enough to answer these questions, or even have an informed opinion... but would love to learn more from those here who do!

I agree with that.

You can turn it around. Listening to a system where the speakers have low distortion, where the amplifiers are not driven into clipping (starts distorted). How incomparably loud you can play without getting "pain" in the ears. The clarity of the sound. Then you (me) go home and listen to your own Hifi system. Then you realize where the limitations lie. Lucky for the neighbors that I can not play so loud per se.

I heard this a few weeks ago. Video does not do the rig justice, should be heard IRL, but a little of what I mean may be clear. Also attach some pictures of the amplifiers to that rig.

The video was recorded at this fair:

Hifi Vintage DIY fair with pictures

I visited this fair yesterday! DIY & Vintage meeting in Mölnlycke Here is a short report. When: 6 November 2021 Where: Country: Sweden City: Gothenburg I took pictures myself BUT most were so damn blurred so I borrow pictures from this thread, taken by other participants. Pictures taken from...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[jae]

As perfection is more or less reached, maybe it will go the other way and the next step is "reviewing" things like like DSP/software solutions (even ones that may deliberately add distortion, tube emulation filters etc). Or just focus on transducers

 

[Galliardist]

There's actually still a lot to say about a DAC without mentioning subjective sound. Measurement tells us the basics. Filters need to be understood. The interface - what plugs in and how, whether fixed volume or preamp, what power amps it may work with, and of course what buttons and knobs you get - think of the Chord Qutest vs a Moon DAC, for example.

I'm sure there is still even a case for listening to one in a review - if just to make sure it actually works as described!

 

[DanielT]

Galliardist. The thing with volume control on a DAC with preamp, I have heard several say that you should investigate further in terms of sound quality. Many cheap DACs in themselves are good, but as you mention, the signal must be output from the DAC into the amplifier.

Many say that the best investment for sound was when they started measuring and EQ. There's probably a lot in that.

Frequency response for subwoffers in a
normal living room, listening room for example can look completely crazy.

Subwoffer by the way. Lots of bass. Good bass I like that.

Speaking of EQ. Headphones without EQ, especially closed ones, are completely pointless:

How about EQ with headphones?

You who do EQ with headphones . EQ setting,it's based on subjective, liking and taste in terms of sound, right? Subjectively because frequency curves and headphones are pretty pointless (how measure?) to start with because our ears look different, right? Or what do I know there may be special...

audiosciencereview.com

Edit:
To hear differences. When put to the test.Not easy to hear differences:

What is this? No golden ears!

Got an idea last week. Connected a Blu-ray, Sony BDP-S570, and a CD- player Marantz CD5001 to the pre amp. It has line selectors. Went to the local flea market and managed to find duplicates, CDs. Exactly the same CDs, the same recording on the discs. Same master. Enter with the discs in the...

audiosciencereview.com