Yamaha RX-A8A (Japanese website)

[3dbinCanada]

Of course that's the case, who else would pay $3k for a "flagship" receiver?

One requiring all the channels it can power with the feature set it contains in one tidy package. Its got nothing to do with audiophilia nonsense.

 

[Technomania]

I really don't understand the logic in still using bulky linear power supplies in 2021 receivers. They could save so much space, reduce heat, and improve performance by using modern SMPS. A 2kW digitally controlled isolated multi output SMPS has relatively small form factor. It seems like they use linear power supply only to satisfy the audiophool community...

If you do some research, you might understand the logic. The article below tells us that a dozen of features are compared and taken into account when making choice of power supply. It is not that simplistic as presented. There is more to it than space, heat and performance. And there is nothing really wrong with either option, depending on use case.

Difference between Linear Power Supply and SMPS (with Comparison Chart) - Electronics Coach

The main difference between the linear power supply and SMPS is that linear power supply converts the high voltage of AC into low voltage AC then the rectification procedure takes place while the SMPS converts the AC signal into DC signal first then the stepping down of voltage signal takes place.

electronicscoach.com

Of course that's the case, who else would pay $3k for a "flagship" receiver?

The same comment as above. You guys will need to try much harder. I'll give you an idea. The best weapon you could possibly try to use against the new line is HDMI 2.1 board and features. If this does not work properly after the roll out of firmware in February and a few later waves, it's going to have a real impact and become a deal breaker in wider consumer electronics market. You need to pick your fight and arguments wisely, related to intended audience of machines. Lower SINAD and a few glitches are not going to be that relevant outside of audio purist crowd, percentage of which could be counted on fingers of one hand. New line is not CX/MX gear and is intended for wider market, so different things will matter for buyers. Yamaha's marketing efforts suggest that new HDMI 2.1 tech is the single most important development differentiating the new line from previous generations. It could be the Achilles heel of another disaster, after 2020 fiasco..., but is does not need to be. We will find out soon.

By the way, I would never call consumers "audiophool" community. Boxing people into meaningless categories is not helpful here, as daily users of devices simply want to enjoy their music and movies, possibly games a bit too. Let's focus on devices and not on hurling derogatory labels onto people who buy those. ASR is not a website where members are experts in psychological profiling of AVR buyers, but here we argue respectfully about devices without labeling people who use them. It is that simple.

 

[squeedle]

One requiring all the channels it can power with the feature set it contains in one tidy package. Its got nothing to do with audiophilia nonsense.

Then just get A6A. Just my opinion. A8A is for audiophiles and people who want to have some kind of "flagship" status symbol for a disproportionate markup over the A6A.

 

[EB1000]

If you do some research, you might understand the logic. The article below tells us that a dozen of features are compared and taken into account when making choice of power supply. It is not that simplistic as presented. There is more to it than space, heat and performance. And there is nothing really wrong with either option, depending on use case.

Difference between Linear Power Supply and SMPS (with Comparison Chart) - Electronics Coach

The main difference between the linear power supply and SMPS is that linear power supply converts the high voltage of AC into low voltage AC then the rectification procedure takes place while the SMPS converts the AC signal into DC signal first then the stepping down of voltage signal takes place.

electronicscoach.com

The same comment as above. You guys will need to try much harder. I'll give you an idea. The best weapon you could possibly try to use against the new line is HDMI 2.1 board and features. If this does not work properly after the roll out of firmware in February and a few later waves, it's going to have a real impact and become a deal breaker in wider consumer electronics market. You need to pick your fight and arguments wisely, related to intended audience of machines. Lower SINAD and a few glitches are not going to be that relevant outside of audio purist crowd, percentage of which could be counted on fingers of one hand. New line is not CX/MX gear and is intended for wider market, so different things will matter for buyers. Yamaha's marketing efforts suggest that new HDMI 2.1 tech is the single most important development differentiating the new line from previous generations. It could be the Achilles heel of another disaster, after 2020 fiasco..., but is does not need to be. We will find out soon.

By the way, I would never call consumers "audiophool" community. Boxing people into meaningless categories is not helpful here, as daily users of devices simply want to enjoy their music and movies, possibly games a bit too. Let's focus on devices and not on hurling derogatory labels onto people who buy those. ASR is not a website where members are experts in psychological profiling of AVR buyers, but here we argue respectfully about devices without labeling people who use them. It is that simple.

That article is either outdated or mostly false. SMPS transient response is quite good, with LLC converters (Fr = 500kHz) reaching typical slew rates of several amps per us, which is an overkill for both audio and video applications. You could also combine linear regulators or LDO's with SMPS as a secondary regulation stage for low power control circuitry. If NAD could use an SMPS in their T778 AVR, I don't see why other can't.

 

[squeedle]

If you watch the new AudioHolics interview with Hobie Sechrest of Monolith, he mentions at one point how he was working with ATI to develop their new Hypex Class D amps for months with the aim of using linear power supplies, and eventually they just came to the realization that modern SMPS outperformed LPS in every way, and the only reason to continue to pursue LPS would be due to some kind of outdated audiophile theology. They decided to go with SMPS.

 

[3dbinCanada]

Then just get A6A. Just my opinion. A8A is for audiophiles and people who want to have some kind of "flagship" status symbol for a disproportionate markup over the A6A.

The A6A cannot drive as many speakers as the A8A. The A6A requires external amps. Your logic and assumptions are biased and flawed.

 

[squeedle]

The A6A cannot drive as many speakers as the A8A. The A6A requires external amps. Your logic and assumptions are biased and flawed.

Oh right it has 2 extra surround channels, you're right. For $1000. LOL. What a great deal. Also, are you a robot? Who talks like that?

 

[3dbinCanada]

If you do some research, you might understand the logic. The article below tells us that a dozen of features are compared and taken into account when making choice of power supply. It is not that simplistic as presented. There is more to it than space, heat and performance. And there is nothing really wrong with either option, depending on use case.

Difference between Linear Power Supply and SMPS (with Comparison Chart) - Electronics Coach

The main difference between the linear power supply and SMPS is that linear power supply converts the high voltage of AC into low voltage AC then the rectification procedure takes place while the SMPS converts the AC signal into DC signal first then the stepping down of voltage signal takes place.

electronicscoach.com

The same comment as above. You guys will need to try much harder. I'll give you an idea. The best weapon you could possibly try to use against the new line is HDMI 2.1 board and features. If this does not work properly after the roll out of firmware in February and a few later waves, it's going to have a real impact and become a deal breaker in wider consumer electronics market. You need to pick your fight and arguments wisely, related to intended audience of machines. Lower SINAD and a few glitches are not going to be that relevant outside of audio purist crowd, percentage of which could be counted on fingers of one hand. New line is not CX/MX gear and is intended for wider market, so different things will matter for buyers. Yamaha's marketing efforts suggest that new HDMI 2.1 tech is the single most important development differentiating the new line from previous generations. It could be the Achilles heel of another disaster, after 2020 fiasco..., but is does not need to be. We will find out soon.

By the way, I would never call consumers "audiophool" community. Boxing people into meaningless categories is not helpful here, as daily users of devices simply want to enjoy their music and movies, possibly games a bit too. Let's focus on devices and not on hurling derogatory labels onto people who buy those. ASR is not a website where members are experts in psychological profiling of AVR buyers, but here we argue respectfully about devices without labeling people who use them. It is that simple.

EMI is difficult to control and shield against. I can understand why AVR manufacturers tend to shy away from SMPS .

 

[AdamG]

Oh right it has 2 extra surround channels, you're right. For $1000. LOL. What a great deal. Also, are you a robot? Who talks like that?

Please keep in mind that we are a Global Website and have members from around the Globe. English may not be their native dialect. Show some forgiveness if posts are not in complete and proper structure, syntax, inflection and/or grammar.

 

[squeedle]

Please keep in mind that we are a Global Website and have members from around the Globe. English may not be their native dialect. Show some forgiveness if posts are not in complete and proper structure, syntax, inflection and/or grammar.

Thanks for the reminder, and point taken. But both parties in a conversation still need to be aware of tone. Moving on.

 

[Technomania]

If NAD could use an SMPS in their T778 AVR, I don't see why other can't.

EMI is difficult to control and shield against. I can understand why AVR manufacturers tend to shy away from SMPS .

There are competing designs and there are transitional designs. Just because one happens to be more modern does not immediately invalidate traditional approach. If we look at it from wider perspective, we will accept both the idea of coexistence of designs and the option that eventually one would prevail for some time, until another new and more efficient design comes about. Both situations are ok. I do not see in reality that either of power designs makes vast majority of users in consumer electronics think that it is a deal breaking feature for their machine. If it does for you @EB1000, that's great, but you will not win too many minds against Yamaha by repeatedly pointing out the inefficiency of their power supply.

It is admirable that you have granular knowledge about it and share with us, but this knowledge need not be used against any vendor, unless there are obvious structural, functional and safety issues associated with the use of more traditional design, which is not the case here at all. If you had argued for more modern SMPS on the grounds that it would use less energy and contribute to fight against the climate change, and that this change would be brilliant for entire industry because it helps the planet too, you might get more traction with that line of argument, providing that people actually care about it. Try to make them care with positive narrative.

You can easily argue that several vendors have migrated to SMPS for the said reasons and that they are setting pioneering steps that everyone should follow in future generations of device. And I would be with you on that one, as you are setting a positive tone. At the same time, you do not need to berate any vendor for not yet having adopted this design. It's not necessary. Allow the industry to move in its own pace and keep promoting the idea without bashing anyone. You can also consider writing positive emails to engineer teams of vendors who are yet to consider adopting SMPS, presenting your argument and expertise, and encouraging them to make a transition. Just don't tell them that they are dumb for not doing it. Such narrative does not bring change. If you manage to do that, you will contribute to a real change in AV industry.

 

[OldAndSlowDev]

Oh right it has 2 extra surround channels, you're right. For $1000. LOL. What a great deal. Also, are you a robot? Who talks like that?

Bigger power supply, a pair of Sabre ESS9026Pro instead of a single one, better capacitors, wired in 14awg, there more than just two additional amps in the A8A… And you can’t do 7.2.4 with the RX-A6A, you miss two channels.

 

[squeedle]

Bigger power supply, a pair of Sabre ESS9026Pro instead of a single one, better capacitors, wired in 14awg, there more than just two additional amps in the A8A… And you can’t do 7.2.4 with the RX-A6A, you miss two channels.

Right aside from the 2 extra surround channels, all that is 100% audiophile stuff. I'm not saying there's no point in it, but it's only for "audiophile" people really.

 

[OldAndSlowDev]

Right aside from the 2 extra surround channels, all that is 100% audiophile stuff. I'm not saying there's no point in it, but it's only for "audiophile" people really.

Yes I understand your point. I mainly listen 2.2 music, but got a 7.2.2 system for movies and gaming so it’s the “perfect” product fir me. Actually I would even be happier with 13 channels to be able to do a 7.2.4 with bi amp front speakers. But the Denon 8500AH is way more expensive.

 

[3dbinCanada]

There are competing designs and there are transitional designs. Just because one happens to be more modern does not immediately invalidate traditional approach. If we look at it from wider perspective, we will accept both the idea of coexistence of designs and the option that eventually one would prevail for some time, until another new and more efficient design comes about. Both situations are ok. I do not see in reality that either of power designs makes vast majority of users in consumer electronics think that it is a deal breaking feature for their machine. If it does for you @EB1000, that's great, but you will not win too many minds against Yamaha by repeatedly pointing out the inefficiency of their power supply.

It is admirable that you have granular knowledge about it and share with us, but this knowledge need not be used against any vendor, unless there are obvious structural, functional and safety issues associated with the use of more traditional design, which is not the case here at all. If you had argued for more modern SMPS on the grounds that it would use less energy and contribute to fight against the climate change, and that this change would be brilliant for entire industry because it helps the planet too, you might get more traction with that line of argument, providing that people actually care about it. Try to make them care with positive narrative.

You can easily argue that several vendors have migrated to SMPS for the said reasons and that they are setting pioneering steps that everyone should follow in future generations of device. And I would be with you on that one, as you are setting a positive tone. At the same time, you do not need to berate any vendor for not yet having adopted this design. It's not necessary. Allow the industry to move in its own pace and keep promoting the idea without bashing anyone. You can also consider writing positive emails to engineer teams of vendors who are yet to consider adopting SMPS, presenting your argument and expertise, and encouraging them to make a transition. Just don't tell them that they are dumb for not doing it. Such narrative does not bring change. If you manage to do that, you will contribute to a real change in AV industry.

I agree. Theres a lot more than just sticking a new power supply into a chassis. Yamaha has a huge influence on the component industry through sheer volume of sales of its electronics. They would need to QC a new supply management chain for components required to build SMPS. It also affects the QC testing of the AVR and other logistical avenues required to bring it to market. Perhaps Yamaha feels that its not financially feasable to change their logistics at this time.

Unfortunately, they didnt QC strict enough, the HDMI boards used in their AVRs which is unfortunate for them. Denon and Marantz were also effected by this.

 

[3dbinCanada]

Right aside from the 2 extra surround channels, all that is 100% audiophile stuff. I'm not saying there's no point in it, but it's only for "audiophile" people really.

Actually audiophiles stay away from AVRs in general claiming anecdotal evidence that their sound quality is inferior to integrated amps and seperates. Nothing audiophile about an AVR at all. More robust power supplies and better DSP doesnt make it audiophile. You want audiophile, read the Hegel review.

 

[OldAndSlowDev]

Actually audiophiles stay away from AVRs in general claiming anecdotal evidence that their sound quality is inferior to integrated amps and seperates. Nothing audiophile about an AVR at all. More robust power supplies and better DSP doesnt make it audiophile. You want audiophile, read the Hegel review.

I am more an Audiophile than a home theater enthusiast but I have to be pragmatic. I don’t have a dedicated room for music and another for a home theater. Good avr are very capable stereo amps. Maybe with more budget and time I would have built a separated decoder/preamp/amp system but the convenience of having a small footprint with a single unit and not to mess with hundreds of cables in my living room is a good compromise.

Maybe some days we will have some revolutionary avr with smps power supply and class D amps, who knows. Right now I am more than impressed with the gigantic quality leap when it’s about listening music coming from a 2000 Denon AVC-A1D.

Now I am just hoping for the hdmi 2.1 firmware update to be rock solid.

I know that there are some channels in the RX-A6A that suffer from poor THD-N / Sinad measurements compared to the mighty Denon 8500HA but it seems to still be way above human hearing so while a bit “disappointed” this poor performance from an engineering point of view, the product gives me more than what I expected.

 

[squeedle]

Actually audiophiles stay away from AVRs in general claiming anecdotal evidence that their sound quality is inferior to integrated amps and seperates. Nothing audiophile about an AVR at all. More robust power supplies and better DSP doesnt make it audiophile. You want audiophile, read the Hegel review.

Your definition of audiophile is different from mine. But whatever, not interested in arguing semantics.

 

[OldAndSlowDev]

I agree. Theres a lot more than just sticking a new power supply into a chassis. Yamaha has a huge influence on the component industry through sheer volume of sales of its electronics. They would need to QC a new supply management chain for components required to build SMPS. It also affects the QC testing of the AVR and other logistical avenues required to bring it to market. Perhaps Yamaha feels that its not financially feasable to change their logistics at this time.

Unfortunately, they didnt QC strict enough, the HDMI boards used in their AVRs which is unfortunate for them. Denon and Marantz were also effected by this.

From what I learned (I am back in the audio hobby after a twenty years break) the hdmi fiasco is more something related to the hdmi consortium itself. They even today still don’t have a test protocol to validate products. So early hdmi 2.1 AVR got a Panasonic hdmi chip that wasn’t able to decode both compressed and uncompressed streams so they technically were hdmi 2.1 but not compatible with the only hdmi 2.1 sources: consoles and pc. It’s hard to blame QC if they don’t have tools to test a defined behavior.

From a customer point of view of course, it’s unacceptable. I would have been furious

 

[chris719]

A teardown of A8A

A sea of caps. Looks like they spent money on Nichicon "audio" caps instead of learning how to correctly design electronics.