Yamaha RX-A3080 Review (AVR)

[3dbinCanada]

Eco was definitely off, otherwise you don't get such high output. 8 ohms the same, as he met the specs.

I would be more curious about ECO being on because it might reduce the power supply noise. It might also be nice to test the other DAC filters, just for fun.

In the end, I actually think their design might be quite good. The 120 Hz hum is not audible and the harmonic distortion seems better than for many other AVRs.

This unit was a refurb. What are the chances that there is a rectifier diode on the way out generating this noise? I know Amir can only test what he's given but I can help but think that this noise may not be representative of a healthy AVR. Conclusions are being reached about a unit that may or may not be healthy. Its difficult to tell.

I have a RX-A3060, RX-V1075, RX-V1900, RX-V1800 (given to my son in law) and an RX-V1500 that is squirelled away in storage. All of them except for the RX-V1800 was purchased used and all are functioning as if they were new, problem free. Measurements alone do not indicate a products QC, or operational longevity without failure which Yamaha still leads in the AVR industry.

 

[EEE272]

This unit was a refurb. What are the chances that there is a rectifier diode on the way out generating this noise? I know Amir can only test what he's given but I can help but think that this noise may not be representative of a healthy AVR. Conclusions are being reached about a unit that may or may not be healthy. Its difficult to tell.

I have a RX-A3060, RX-V1075, RX-V1900, RX-V1800 (given to my son in law) and an RX-V1500 that is squirelled away in storage. All of them except for the RX-V1800 was purchased used and all are functioning as if they were new, problem free. Measurements alone do not indicate a products QC, or operational longevity without failure which Yamaha still leads in the AVR industry.

I totally agree. I am also happy with mine, even if it would turn out that the score applies to mine at home as well.

 

[beagleman]

A top of the line receiver with XLR preouts ... not typical use case? Obviously not everyone will use them, but they are built in the design. To not be able to do so without shutting down is a design flaw. You can get around it by choosing an amp that can be fully driven with around 2V, but should you be limited in your amp choice when buying an external amp?

I think you are totally missing one huge point though!

The shutting down thing, will only happen during testing, with full range signals at a VERY high volume.

Can you even relate as to what actual sound levels are going to be at the levels Amir was testing at>?

We are talking running full spectrum, sine wave signals from multiple channels at QUITE high levels.

That is not even remotely close to normal usage. That is running something to it's limits on a TEST BENCH, and almost certainly will never happen in normal movie or music playing.

Now I agree, it is something that can potentially make the product seem less usable, and not well thought out perhaps, but in actual use, what you are describing is never an issue.

 

[3dbinCanada]

A top of the line receiver with XLR preouts ... not typical use case? Obviously not everyone will use them, but they are built in the design. To not be able to do so without shutting down is a design flaw. You can get around it by choosing an amp that can be fully driven with around 2V, but should you be limited in your amp choice when buying an external amp?

Who says the XLR inputs can't be used without shutting down the unit? How do you know the unit tested by Amir is representative of a healthy unit? I think this whole thread and test of a used refurbished unit whose health hasnt been verified is a complete utter farce and sham. The funny thing is that there is a lot of knee jerk reactions to a unit that came out of a refurb shop without any questions being asked if the refurb was properly performed.

 

[Dj7675]

That is not even remotely close to normal usage. That is running something to it's limits on a TEST BENCH, and almost certainly will never happen in normal movie or music playing.

This is their top of the line receiver. As such, some owners will want to purchase external amps and some of these amps will could require more that 2 volts to get to the required power in particular with wide dynamic range content and/or peaks. How much power one needs will also depend on listening distance and speaker sensitivity. Some home theater users do design their theater to handle playback at or near reference levels, which is loud. I agree that for many this won’t be an issue. But for die hard home theater users that want their theater reference level capable and want to use external amps, it could certainly be an issue. Without tests like this we wouldn’t know about this limitation. The limitation of preout voltage is just a big miss for me and something they should remove in future models IMO. If you are planning a theater build and are using external amps for your LCR for example, why pick a high end receiver with a hard limit on preout voltage and take the chance that it could be an issue when other brands don’t exhibit this behavior?

 

[3dbinCanada]

This is their top of the line receiver. As such, some owners will want to purchase external amps and some of these amps will could require more that 2 volts to get to the required power in particular with wide dynamic range content and/or peaks. How much power one needs will also depend on listening distance and speaker sensitivity. Some home theater users do design their theater to handle playback at or near reference levels, which is loud. I agree that for many this won’t be an issue. But for die hard home theater users that want their theater reference level capable and want to use external amps, it could certainly be an issue. Without tests like this we wouldn’t know about this limitation. The limitation of preout voltage is just a big miss for me and something they should remove in future models IMO. If you are planning a theater build and are using external amps for your LCR for example, why pick a high end receiver with a hard limit on preout voltage and take the chance that it could be an issue when other brands don’t exhibit this behavior?

And you can vouch for the health of this unit and guarentee it was operating under factory specifications?

 

[EEE272]

This is their top of the line receiver. As such, some owners will want to purchase external amps and some of these amps will could require more that 2 volts to get to the required power in particular with wide dynamic range content and/or peaks. How much power one needs will also depend on listening distance and speaker sensitivity. Some home theater users do design their theater to handle playback at or near reference levels, which is loud. I agree that for many this won’t be an issue. But for die hard home theater users that want their theater reference level capable and want to use external amps, it could certainly be an issue. Without tests like this we wouldn’t know about this limitation. The limitation of preout voltage is just a big miss for me and something they should remove in future models IMO. If you are planning a theater build and are using external amps for your LCR for example, why pick a high end receiver with a hard limit on preout voltage and take the chance that it could be an issue when other brands don’t exhibit this behavior?

If you want to use the 3080 as a pre-amp, why not buy a 5200? It is the same model as pre-amp. No need to switch brands...

 

[Dj7675]

Who says the XLR inputs can't be used without shutting down the unit? How do you know the unit tested by Amir is representative of a healthy unit? I think this whole thread and test of a used refurbished unit whose health hasnt been verified is a complete utter farce and sham. The funny thing is that the head lemming, Amir in this case is leading you over a cliff which the rest of you lemmings eagerly following in his foot steps. I see the value of Amir's tests if the units were new and didnt come out of a refurb shop. This one did however so ALL his test results of this unit are questionable to the point of being invalid.

A few comments..
-You can never know if any unit ever (even brand new from the manufacturer) is defective or not. What are we to do? Never test even new units that have been tested already by the manufacturer? Only release results if we can test 2, 3, 4 units? What about used units? Should these not ever be tested? That would make no sense to me.
-“head lemming, Amir”... have some class, show some respect, and at the very least don’t throw around insults. Is name calling etc really necessary?
-I don’t understand why all the anger and vitriol.... an offended Yamaha owner?

 

[Dj7675]

If you want to use the 3080 as a pre-amp, why not buy a 5200? It is the same model as pre-amp. No need to switch brands...

Simple. To use some of the internal amps for something other that L/C/R... The value of receivers is to use some or all of their amps. Receivers with preouts allow you to choose to just use some...

 

[beagleman]

This is their top of the line receiver. As such, some owners will want to purchase external amps and some of these amps will could require more that 2 volts to get to the required power in particular with wide dynamic range content and/or peaks. How much power one needs will also depend on listening distance and speaker sensitivity. Some home theater users do design their theater to handle playback at or near reference levels, which is loud. I agree that for many this won’t be an issue. But for die hard home theater users that want their theater reference level capable and want to use external amps, it could certainly be an issue. Without tests like this we wouldn’t know about this limitation. The limitation of preout voltage is just a big miss for me and something they should remove in future models IMO. If you are planning a theater build and are using external amps for your LCR for example, why pick a high end receiver with a hard limit on preout voltage and take the chance that it could be an issue when other brands don’t exhibit this behavior?

Again, you side stepped the issue. I agree with you in "theory", not the best design. .......but......

These signals were full range sine waves. I agree it looks bad on paper to fail this, but unless very high level multi channel sine waves are played, this will almost certainly never happen in actual usage.

How about I do this. As a quick and dirty experiment. Not scientific for sure.
I have the ability to test this with my unit. Using normal movie and music material, I will subject mine to the highest levels I deem tolerable for listening, AND then go even a good bit higher to see if I can get mine to go into protection mode?

Since the issue, seems to be the "Internal amps" shutting down the unit, it would happen either with a separate amp or not., as they are not able to be shut off from use, when using JUST the preamp outs.

Would that help your concerns, or not actually address the issue you are talking about?

 

[Dj7675]

How about I do this. As a quick and dirty experiment. Not scientific for sure.
I have the ability to test this with my unit. Using normal movie and music material, I will subject mine to the highest levels I deem tolerable for listening, AND then go even a good bit higher to see if I can get mine to go into protection mode?

Are you using an external amp or just the internal amps? This is about using the preouts and the voltage required to drive those external amps. External amps could require more voltage than the internal amps, that is the issue.. If you are just using internal amps, then yes this won’t ever be an issue...

 

[beagleman]

Are you using an external amp or just the internal amps? This is about using the preouts and the voltage required to drive those external amps. External amps could require more voltage than the internal amps, that is the issue.. If you are just using internal amps, then yes this won’t ever be an issue...

Great point, and I agree.
Being honest here, was going to just use internal amps and SEE if I could get protection to engage, but a good chance they would be as you say, more sensitive and merely result in VERY loud sound.

Too much work to unhook a power amp I have and redo it onto the Yamaha.......again not even sure what input sensitivity my power amps would require.......

Okay for now, scrap that idea....Which now begs the question, what exact volume level was this unit tested at?

I may have missed that, but at least then could "Relate" the volume level in "minus db from zero" to as what mine uses for normal listening and get an "idea" what output voltages he was using at least.

@amirm Do you recall the Volume control setting you used for testing, OR at what point it shut down?

 

[Dj7675]

Great point, and I agree.
Being honest here, was going to just use internal amps and SEE if I could get protection to engage, but a good chance they would be as you say, more sensitive and merely result in VERY loud sound.

Too much work to unhook a power amp I have and redo it onto the Yamaha.......again not even sure what input sensitivity my power amps would require.......

Okay for now, scrap that idea....

I really doubt you could get the protection to engage with the internal amps... and yes it would be very loud. No sense in doing that for sure! My post in no way was meant to say that if you are using internal amps that there would ever be an issue, or that the unit does not perform/sound great in anyone’s particular system. My point is simple really... if you plan on using external amps, it could be an issue if the amp you want requires 2V or more. Conversely, if you do plan on using external amps, make sure they don’t require 2V or more to be fully driven. And lastly, this limitation really shouldn’t exist.

 

[Rottmannash]

And you can vouch for the health of this unit and guarentee it was operating under factory specifications?

Apparently Yamaha felt confident in its ability to refurbish the unit and re-release it into the wild. Shouldn't we perceive it as fully functional, or does Yamaha release faulty units to the public?

 

[AdamG]

or operational longevity without failure which Yamaha still leads in the AVR industry.

Please provide a citation to source of this claimed information so we may all read. Thank you.

 

[peng]

If you want to use the 3080 as a pre-amp, why not buy a 5200? It is the same model as pre-amp. No need to switch brands...

Actually I am considering switching brand just for the sake of change, and incidentally I have been considering Yamaha's CX-A models. I would have bought a 5200, if it had measured as good as other alternatives at similar price point. Unfortunately, Gene (AH) had found an anomaly that showed the balanced output had much higher distortions than the unbalanced output. That was a brand new unit he tested.

The higher distortions would most likely not make any audible difference to me unless I crank the volume up and stick my ears to the speaker grille, but obviously I won't do such a thing except for testing. I just don't feel like buying something with such a known anomaly if there are better alternatives. Gene just measured the A6A not long ago, and it also found to have much higher distortions in the center and surround channels when voltage exceeded 650 mV. Again, I would agree the elevated distortions/noise level in those channels wouldn't be noticeable to me during movie watching. My concern is not about audibility of those flaws, but the causes. After they (Yamaha) have been alerted of that sort of issues more than once now, I really hope the replacement of the CX-A5200 will be better.

So far I have not seen any posters claiming the "shutdown" or distortions level would have bad impacts on actual use in the real world by everyone or most people. To me, Dj7675's point is that a flagship model should do better on the test bench regardless, and the shutdown issue could be an issue by some users depending on their needs/listening habits etc.. I also think the 3 dB's point about the possibility that the refurbished unit tested may have some hidden issues so on that I would agree we should not assume the issue found on the one measured would apply to all 3080s. However, we should also keep in mind this is not the first time the word "shutdown" or pre out voltage concern appear on reviews that involved testing Yamaha AVRs, though it is the first time it got mentioned in testing a refurbished flagship class unit.

Anyway, back on the 5200:

Yamaha AVENTAGE 5200 Series 11CH Processor/Amplifier Review

Yamaha is on their 3rd generation of separates in the Aventage line with their new 11-channel CX-A5200 AV Processor and MX-A5200 amplifier. Read our review to find out if they are a worthy successor.

www.audioholics.com

CX-A5100:
Brown: Unbal - 90dB @ 1kHz
Red: Bal -95dB @ 1kHz

CX-A5200:
Purple: Unbal -88dB @ 1kHz
Blue: Bal -72dB @ 1kHz

As you can see there's actually about a 23dB difference in distortion between the CX-A5100 and CX-A5200 at the same drive level and test conditions via the XLR outputs. The difference in distortion between the CX-A5100 and CX-A5200 unbalanced outputs was only 2dB in this comparison.

Yamaha confirmed my measurements and discovered the culprit to this increased distortion had something to do with how the volume control IC interacts with the XLR outputs. This is something they plan to resolve in future models but cannot make a hardware change to this current model.

 

[peng]

Great point, and I agree.
Being honest here, was going to just use internal amps and SEE if I could get protection to engage, but a good chance they would be as you say, more sensitive and merely result in VERY loud sound.

Too much work to unhook a power amp I have and redo it onto the Yamaha.......again not even sure what input sensitivity my power amps would require.......

Okay for now, scrap that idea....Which now begs the question, what exact volume level was this unit tested at?

I may have missed that, but at least then could "Relate" the volume level in "minus db from zero" to as what mine uses for normal listening and get an "idea" what output voltages he was using at least.

@amirm Do you recall the Volume control setting you used for testing, OR at what point it shut down?

Sorry I didn't read the whole thread, is it your 3080 that Amir tested? Thank you.

 

[Dj7675]

Actually I am considering switching brand just for the sake of change, and incidentally I have been considering Yamaha's CX-A models. I would have bought a 5200, if it had measured as good as other alternatives at similar price point. Unfortunately, Gene (AH) had found an anomaly that showed the balanced output had much higher distortions than the unbalanced output. That was a brand new unit he tested.

Back before I purchased the Denon X8500 I too had the 5200 on my list. Then I read Gene's review which revealed the balanced connection you cited, and that took it off my list at the time. I found the issue very surprising that issue could get through product development and their response to Gene's finding... underwhelming (if I recall correctly, there was no plan on fixing it for current owners, or making a mid run to fix the issue on new units).

 

[beagleman]

Sorry I didn't read the whole thread, is it your 3080 that Amir tested? Thank you.

No, I was not the one that submitted the test unit.

 

[JRiggs]

I am using multiple external amps with my 3080. The XLR feed signal to the LR channels of a Parasound Halo A31. A Buckeye amp powers Zone II for a pair of outdoor speakers. Internal amps power the Front and Rear height/Atmos speakers. Nothing has ever shut down, ever.