Yamaha CA-800 - Issues with it, or issues with me?

[orangetang]

A few days ago, I purchased this Yamaha CA-800 from a seller out of town. Seller has been in the hobby of building / racing muscle cars and collecting / repairing hi-fi equipment for ~50 years. This is one of a few nice looking units he had for sale. Attached is a photo of the nice, clean looking CA-800 and the baggy of components he reportedly replaced - I believe mainly the PS caps and an out of spec transistor. Supposedly he also made some internal adjustments to return the unit to factory spec.

The price paid was $400 USD for this unit and everything on it appears to work. Both phono stages, Class A and AB modes, filters, tone controls and loudness all seem to be fine.

Issue is, I really don't like how this unit sounds. I find I need to dial the loudness between 5 - 9 and boost the treble to make anything listenable. My vocabulary and definitions for explaining characteristics of sound is poor, but mainly the issue is with overwhelming mids and higher end of the bass frequencies. The sound is possibly a bit shrill and the bass feels very boomy and without precision with no punch at all. There are frequencies in the low-mid end that seem overly powerful that no adjustments to the tone controls can really mitigate without rolling back the bass all the way - which obviously is not an option.

If the bass is turned up on the 500 Hz mode it's just way too boomy and bad sounding to bother with, but at 250 Hz it's possible to squeak a little lower end punch out of th speakers without overwhelming the previous complaint area - sometimes. Overall the 'color' or whatever you want to call it is just very very bad to me.

Highs are decent though. Defined and well adjustable. The stereo image and fidelity also seems to be quite good. The internal phono input and integrated phono filter works, and sounds as clean and nearly indistinguishable from my Fosi X5 external phono stage. I would be torn on which to use to be honest.

That said, if this is normal sound profile from a Yamaha, I won't be keeping this. Or, is it old and needs something else done in an audio circuit?

I'm running this to two KEF Q-150 speakers from both a DAC and TT, with same complaints on both sources. This was meant to replace a large Onkyo AVR from ~2005 (TX-SR703) and it feels like a significant downgrade in terms of sound quality other than the phono stage. My speakers and ears really don't like this amplifier as it is. A few minutes ago after taking a night off from it I turned on a Radiohead OK Computer LP on the TT and I couldn't even listen to it since Thom's voice and bass guitar is really in the region of unpleasantries for me.

What to do - and is this normal? I have a UFO-202 so I could probably record some samples to share and AB the Onkyo eventually. I've tried a set of headphones and they also sound like mud, though this seems somewhat normal for them. I'm hoping to salvage this unit but if not it might be time to move it on to someone else, perhaps this Yamaha sound just isn't for me.

 

[Gibsonian]

Never heard a Yamaha that sounded like you are describing. Sounds like there is something wrong with it and the guy that worked on it maybe isn't really so good. He obviously didn't listen to it before selling. No integrated amp by any of the reputable old Japanese hifi companies should sound like this. Are you handy at all can check some basics like DC offset and bias? These checks and how to do them would be in the service manual for this amp. They are easy but if you don't know you don't know.

Have you tried reaching out to the seller/repair guy? He might care enough to help with your description here.

Finding a good tech who can help you out here is difficult these days and is not cheap. To get rid of it you have to unload a terrible sounding unit onto someone else, not a fun job either.

 

[orangetang]

Never heard a Yamaha that sounded like you are describing. Sounds like there is something wrong with it and the guy that worked on it maybe isn't really so good. He obviously didn't listen to it before selling. No integrated amp by any of the reputable old Japanese hifi companies should sound like this. Are you handy at all can check some basics like DC offset and bias? These checks and how to do them would be in the service manual for this amp. They are easy but if you don't know you don't know.

Have you tried reaching out to the seller/repair guy? He might care enough to help with your description here.

Finding a good tech who can help you out here is difficult these days and is not cheap. To get rid of it you have to unload a terrible sounding unit onto someone else, not a fun job either.

I have sent a message to him earlier today but not heard back yet. This is a 700 km round trip to drop it off even if we came to an agreement so it's not going to be ideal in any scenario.

Generally speaking, would the monitor outs allow me to record a sample of what I'm hearing, or is the signal out of the line level outs comparatively different than the high level speaker outs if there is an internal issue - or might it specifically depend on where an issue lies?

I've got a multimeter... with some instruction I could test some stuff, but that's all I've got for electronics testing equipment. No scope or otherwise.

 

[Gibsonian]

Since you can monitor from speaker outs and preamp out this is a great tool to use. Do you have another amplifier that you can connect your preouts to so you can isolate the preamp? If the sound is good/fixed you'll know the issue lies within the amplifier section. If you have another preamp you can connect this to your CA 800 and listen from the CA800 speaker outs and this would isolate the amplifier. Seems a good way to at least isolate where inside your amp this problem is.

Additionally you can ship these units with good confidence. You simply must know how to pack

 

[Apesbrain]

It's important to understand how the "Loudness" control on these classic Yamaha components works. Set it to "0" and then use the "Volume" control to set the playback level to the loudest you would ever listen. Going forward, use only the "Loudness" control to set listening level; leave the "Volume" control alone.

Confirm that all front panel switches are set to their neutral positions; e.g. "Low Filter" and "High Filter" off, "Bass" and "Treble" controls set to "Tone Defeat" position. The "Operation" switch for now set to "Normal". On the rear panel, confirm that the Phono-1 "Input Imp." switch is set to "50 kΩ". If you use your external Fosi phono pre-amp into one of the Yamaha AUX inputs, is the resulting sound any better?

Can you rearrange your setup to get your turntable off of the top of the Yamaha? This, along with the LPs tightly packed to either side, is blocking airflow to the amp and potentially close enough for EMR feedback to reach the cartridge. The turntable should not be on any surface that is shared with your speakers. You have a selection of cartridges none of which are great performers. Can you upgrade your Ortofon 2M to the Blue stylus, or replace your Audio-Technica with a VM95EN?

If you are using the same unterminated speaker wire as you did with your old AVR, clip off the old wire ends and strip some clean exposed wire to make your connections. Using your fingers, twist the exposed wire strands to make them tighter before inserting into Yamaha or connecting to speakers.

Back in the day, these Yamaha "Natural Sound" components were known for neutrality and clean sound, and priced at the high end of the scale. That said, it's now a 50 year-old amplifier that was originally built to a very good standard, but not "heirloom" status. Your seller may have not done enough to bring it back to original specs which these days can cost hundreds of dollars.

Finally, you just may not like the sound of the unit. I recall really admiring the design and construction of the Yamaha receivers and amps back then, but prefering the sound of Pioneer, Marantz and Sansui.

 

[mhardy6647]

Are the controls clean? Any variability or scratchiness heard when changing any of the controls?
The CA-800 of course also has switch selectable Class A output operation. That switch can be problematic, and improper use of it even more problematic! It should NEVER be switched from A to AB operation when the amplifier is powered on.

The one here sounds great, FWIW.

 

[antcollinet]

What multi meter do you have. It would need to be "True RMS" and have bandwidth out to 20kHz to be useful in checking frequency response.

 

[orangetang]

It's important to understand how the "Loudness" control on these classic Yamaha components works. Set it to "0" and then use the "Volume" control to set the playback level to the loudest you would ever listen. Going forward, use only the "Loudness" control to set listening level; leave the "Volume" control alone.

I've read about this prior to purchase and tried this, pretty much anywhere in the loudness range I have the same issues with the mid to low end - even using exactly as described.

Confirm that all front panel switches are set to their neutral positions; e.g. "Low Filter" and "High Filter" off, "Bass" and "Treble" controls set to "Tone Defeat" position. The "Operation" switch for now set to "Normal". On the rear panel, confirm that the Phono-1 "Input Imp." switch is set to "50 kΩ". If you use your external Fosi phono pre-amp into one of the Yamaha AUX inputs, is the resulting sound any better?

I've tried neutral and defeat positions too, but there is considerable improvements from adjusting these controls.

For phono-1 input impedance, I've played with different positions and do currently have it set to 50 kΩ. Using the Fosi X5 sounds nearly indistinguishable to the the built in phono stage at 50 kΩ.

My complaints are mirrored if using DAC input to AUX 1 or AUX 2 from a PC or through a BT DAC source into AUX 1 or AUX 2. This isn't isolated to the phono.

Can you rearrange your setup to get your turntable off of the top of the Yamaha? This, along with the LPs tightly packed to either side, is blocking airflow to the amp and potentially close enough for EMR feedback to reach the cartridge. The turntable should not be on any surface that is shared with your speakers. You have a selection of cartridges none of which are great performers. Can you upgrade your Ortofon 2M to the Blue stylus, or replace your Audio-Technica with a VM95EN?

I certainly can, but even with the turntable OFF and not plugged in, the issue exists with both DAC sources playing from high-bitrate and/or lossless digital streaming services. It's not a stylus or cartridge issue.

If you are using the same unterminated speaker wire as you did with your old AVR, clip off the old wire ends and strip some clean exposed wire to make your connections. Using your fingers, twist the exposed wire strands to make them tighter before inserting into Yamaha or connecting to speakers.

Already done since I needed to remove the banana plugs to connect into the Yamaha.

Back in the day, these Yamaha "Natural Sound" components were known for neutrality and clean sound, and priced at the high end of the scale. That said, it's now a 50 year-old amplifier that was originally built to a very good standard, but not "heirloom" status. Your seller may have not done enough to bring it back to original specs which these days can cost hundreds of dollars.

Finally, you just may not like the sound of the unit. I recall really admiring the design and construction of the Yamaha receivers and amps back then, but prefering the sound of Pioneer, Marantz and Sansui.

Either of these may be the case. Below is comment from seller when asking for description of work done so I could relist the unit.

""Hey..Not sure what you are hearing in the bottom, not normally a Yamaha trait..did'nt sound that way here, but only took it up to close range test levels at my bench using ADS speakers...freq response was perfect accros the spectrum....may be a combination of units in your setup..........here is what was done........FEW VERY MINOR MARKS.CLASS AB AND CLASS A OUTPUT.EXCELLENT PHONO STAGE...DUAL INPUTS.JUST SERVICED:CLEANED IN AND OUT.ALL CONTROLS AND SWITCHES CLEANED/DE-OXIDIZED.NEW MAIN POWER SUPPLY CAPS INSTALLED.SECONDARY POWER SUPPLY REPAIRED..CAPS/PARTS.EVERY ELECTROLYTIC AND TANTALLUM IN CAP IN AMP PULLED, TESTED AND REPLACED IF OUT OF SPEC.FAULTY TRANSISTOR ON FILTER BOARD REPLACED.REPLACED BROKEN SPEAKER JACKS ON B SPEAKER OUT.DC OFFSET SET TO SPEC.DC BIAS CLASS AB AND CLASS A SET TO SPEC.FULL FREQ RUNS DONE ON PHONO AND AUX TO CHECK BALANCE AND RESPONSE.""

 

[orangetang]

Are the controls clean? Any variability or scratchiness heard when changing any of the controls?
The CA-800 of course also has switch selectable Class A output operation. That switch can be problematic, and improper use of it even more problematic! It should NEVER be switched from A to AB operation when the amplifier is powered on.

I am familiar with the A to AB switch and have only toggled this with the unit powered down.

There is no scratchiness in any of the pots, filters or otherwise. The unit functions very nicely and there is no hum at all through the speakers without a source playing. There is a very very minor hiss at very high volume levels but I feel this is expected of most, if not all amplifiers.

 

[orangetang]

What multi meter do you have. It would need to be "True RMS" and have bandwidth out to 20kHz to be useful in checking frequency response.

I've got a couple that probably can do this, but my Klein CL390 for sure is "True RMS" and has a frequency range of 10 Hz to 60 kHz for 8V to 220 V AC RMS.

 

[mhardy6647]

I am familiar with the A to AB switch and have only toggled this with the unit powered down.

There is no scratchiness in any of the pots, filters or otherwise. The unit functions very nicely and there is no hum at all through the speakers without a source playing. There is a very very minor hiss at very high volume levels but I feel this is expected of most, if not all amplifiers.

Let me ask the question a different way. Does turning, e.g., the bass control ever result in a discontinuous change in the volume level, channel balance, or frequency response? The same question applies to every single control on the amplifier. Oxidized controls are a bigger than average issue in the classic Yamaha hardware, in my experience. The audible manifestation of such can be interesting -- even misleading. Sad but true (i.e., BTDT).

It is 2025. I believe you indicated that some transistors have been changed. In most if not all cases, exact replacement semiconductors are no longer available. It is entirely possible that poor choices were made for substitutes and/or the parts installed were counterfeits. It is also possible that pairs of replaced semiconductors that require careful parameter matching were not matched and/or not replaced as pairs.
It is also possible that mistakes were made in the value or location of replaced components (specifically capacitors).

As others have noted, the separation of pre- and power amp sections allows isolation of the two, which could provide valuable troubleshooting information.

What you have done with the A/AB switch may not be the issue, but rather the switch's (i.e., the unit's) history. The switch itself could be dirty, or (perhas even more likely) have suffered damage from being switched while the amplifier was on.

Does it sound different (in terms of frequency balance, or other complaints you have) in Class A vs. Class AB, all else being equal?

The correct operation of the variable loudness (which is well documented in Yamaha manuals of the era) was also mentioned and could be relevant to some of the complaints.

 

[orangetang]

Let me ask the question a different way. Does turning, e.g., the bass control ever result in a discontinuous change in the volume level, channel balance, or frequency response? The same question applies to every single control on the amplifier. Oxidized controls are a bigger than average issue in the classic Yamaha hardware, in my experience. The audible manifestation of such can be interesting -- even misleading. Sad but true (i.e., BTDT).

If I understand correctly, no. If by volume you mean the rate at which the tone control adjusts bass or treble isn't linear, I would say probably not. Both the bass and treble seem to work in linear steps throughout their range without any change at all to the actual volume level or balance. All controls seem to work normally, or as I feel I would expect them to with the exception of the bass effecting an undesirable portion of the low frequency curve - which may be as intended by Yamaha.

It is 2025. I believe you indicated that some transistors have been changed. In most if not all cases, exact replacement semiconductors are no longer available. It is entirely possible that poor choices were made for substitutes and/or the parts installed were counterfeits. It is also possible that pairs of replaced semiconductors that require careful parameter matching were not matched and/or not replaced as pairs.
It is also possible that mistakes were made in the value or location of replaced components (specifically capacitors).

Totally possible. I'm not sure if I can test for this one way or the other. I could open the unit up and attempt to find which components were changed, but if counterfeit this wouldn't necessarily prove anything would it? Same foes for location and matched pairs, etc.

As others have noted, the separation of pre- and power amp sections allows isolation of the two, which could provide valuable troubleshooting information.

I'll look into seeing if I can test this myself to help with troubleshooting.

What you have done with the A/AB switch may not be the issue, but rather the switch's (i.e., the unit's) history. The switch itself could be dirty, or (perhas even more likely) have suffered damage from being switched while the amplifier was on.

Does it sound different (in terms of frequency balance, or other complaints you have) in Class A vs. Class AB, all else being equal?

My definitions of sound, (warm, bright, etc) may not be accurate to the term or otherwise. I would say that the Class A appears to have a more full and 'warm' mid-range which I am preferring to listen to between the two modes. This could be a placebo thing where both positions sound identical, but it does feel that AB is sounding less punch in the low end. It's difficult to say - they're close.

The correct operation of the variable loudness (which is well documented in Yamaha manuals of the era) was also mentioned and could be relevant to some of the complaints.

This does seem to be the best way to use this amp.

 

[mhardy6647]

This does seem to be the best way to use this amp.

Actually, if one requires level-dependent adjustment of midrange (to allow for the Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curves), Yamaha's volume/loudness controls, operated as described in the manual, are an excellent way to use that amplifier.

Not all implementations require "loudness" compensation (qualitatively/subjectively speaking).

 

[orangetang]

To try different speakers with this amp... Only the KEF Q150 / Q350 and Klipsch R41M / R51M are on sale currently here. The Q350 is likely too large for my office, and they're also more than likely to enhance what I don't like about this amplifier - being overwhelming mid-bass before a nice punchy low end thump can be found. Amir's review seems to put this as a primary complaint of that speaker.

So how are these Klipsch speakers? If they don't work, I could use them in the bedroom or something... I don't want to throw a lot of money at an issue here when going back to the older Onkyo essentially fixes it - but I'm not opposed to trying a different speaker that has attributes that may work with the Yamaha.

 

[orangetang]

I've ordered a mic and will try to record some audio from the speakers as well as the line-out from this unit to compare A B between this unit and the Onkyo. There's a fairly long discussion going on FB right now where I cross posted and several suggest it's just the way these amps present themselves, while others suggest the speaker pairing is poor.

My ears have been adjusting to this 'new' sound for several days now so I'm curious to see how much of a response I have going back to the Onkyo to run some tests.

Even strictly using the loudness to control volume as specified in the manual, I'm sensing a major lack of low end bass, which is where I felt these speakers really did deliver well with the Onkyo. There is also that muddled mid-bass which is all that the bass tone control seems to have control of, which makes sense given the 250 Hz and 500 hz tone filters. Perhaps a 100 Hz or lower bump would help this situation.

Beyond that, there is something lacking in the entire mid bass through mid tones that I can't really understand. "Hollow" might be a word for it, since while it surely is "flat", it isn't just flat, it's empty feeling and cold. Highs remain good, clarity is good, noise is excellent, and stereo, stage, fidelity seem fine. I suppose adding a sub could help this but it seems like a waste so I'll proceed with some A B tests with both amps and can share the links here if anyone feels like helping out.

 

[orangetang]

Are the controls clean? Any variability or scratchiness heard when changing any of the controls?
The CA-800 of course also has switch selectable Class A output operation. That switch can be problematic, and improper use of it even more problematic! It should NEVER be switched from A to AB operation when the amplifier is powered on.

The one here sounds great, FWIW.

What are you running for speakers with this one?

 

[mhardy6647]

What are you running for speakers with this one?

It's not in routine use.

I've used it with what I'd consider low-ish efficiency acoustic suspension loudspeakers mostly (e.g., vintage Acoustic Research, EPI, Allison models), but also with, e.g., vintage passive radiator loaded and modern ported Polk (Audio) loudspeakers. Yamaha and Polk was always a propitious combination (and still is, I'd opine).

Come to think of it, I probably have used ads L-710 (sealed box three ways, a US variant of the Braun L-710) with it more than any other single model. The L-710 was a superb moderate cost/size/efficiency loudspeaker of its era, roughly the same size as Polks "Monitor 7" but a notch more refined sounding (albeit at a higher price point).

 

[antcollinet]

I've ordered a mic and will try to record some audio from the speakers as well as the line-out from this unit to compare A B between this unit and the Onkyo. There's a fairly long discussion going on FB right now where I cross posted and several suggest it's just the way these amps present themselves, while others suggest the speaker pairing is poor.

My ears have been adjusting to this 'new' sound for several days now so I'm curious to see how much of a response I have going back to the Onkyo to run some tests.

Even strictly using the loudness to control volume as specified in the manual, I'm sensing a major lack of low end bass, which is where I felt these speakers really did deliver well with the Onkyo. There is also that muddled mid-bass which is all that the bass tone control seems to have control of, which makes sense given the 250 Hz and 500 hz tone filters. Perhaps a 100 Hz or lower bump would help this situation.

Beyond that, there is something lacking in the entire mid bass through mid tones that I can't really understand. "Hollow" might be a word for it, since while it surely is "flat", it isn't just flat, it's empty feeling and cold. Highs remain good, clarity is good, noise is excellent, and stereo, stage, fidelity seem fine. I suppose adding a sub could help this but it seems like a waste so I'll proceed with some A B tests with both amps and can share the links here if anyone feels like helping out.

Just looked in more detail - you are comparing with your Onkyo AVR - did you use the "automatic speaker setup" with the ONKYO.

If so that would explain a significant difference in bass perception - the Yamaha - as far as I can see - doesn't have any sort of room EQ available.

 

[DSJR]

PLEASE fellas, have none of you ever heard of turntable siting? My dealer hat has come out again with apologies -

You have a solid-plinth deck od lightweight construction plonked on top of a warm-hot running amp with a reasomnable power supply. Hum fields and siting related feedback is not a good thing for higher quality sound. The pickup cartridge can sound muffled if tracked at 3g (I never liked the 3600L for this reason, yet the seemingly identical in every way AT91/Rega Carbon, is fine within the conical stylus limits at 2g downforce...

Please move the turntable to the right of the amp (looking from the front) and better, remove the lid when playing as it can act as a soundboard. Do also remember that boosting bass will mess up vinyl reproduction no end if the deck isn't sited correctly as with decks like this, bass colouration is never far away and easily emphasised long before 'howlround' sets in.

Obviously, the amp is fifty years old now, but Yamahas do seem to last well, so hopefully the OP's example is actually okay...

...Dealer hat forcibly put away again... Apologies for diving in so assertively.

 

[antcollinet]

PLEASE fellas, have none of you ever heard of turntable siting? My dealer hat has come out again with apologies -

You have a solid-plinth deck od lightweight construction plonked on top of a warm-hot running amp with a reasomnable power supply. Hum fields and siting related feedback is not a good thing for higher quality sound. The pickup cartridge can sound muffled if tracked at 3g (I never liked the 3600L for this reason, yet the seemingly identical in every way AT91/Rega Carbon, is fine within the conical stylus limits at 2g downforce...

Please move the turntable to the right of the amp (looking from the front) and better, remove the lid when playing as it can act as a soundboard. Do also remember that boosting bass will mess up vinyl reproduction no end if the deck isn't sited correctly as with decks like this, bass colouration is never far away and easily emphasised long before 'howlround' sets in.

Obviously, the amp is fifty years old now, but Yamahas do seem to last well, so hopefully the OP's example is actually okay...

...Dealer hat forcibly put away again... Apologies for diving in so assertively.

Holy shit.


Didn't even look at the picture. @orangetang, listen to @DSJR, and get the turntable *way* away from the amp.