Yamaha aventage RX- a2a pure DSD

[Trigital]

Hello all, I am very new here, please accept my intrusion.

I am looking to rx-a2a spec and I saw it use DAC PCM5102a and support DSD512.

As I tried to learn from TI website, this DAC has only 16/24/32 bit, so in my opinion the DSD 11.2 MHz is available only as DOP.

I have a Sony BD X800 and with Sony Center for PC app, I can stream DSD256 ( DSD 11.2 MHz ) and I would love to find a solution to connect through HDMI to a capable receiver.

Please advice,

 

[SoundsGood64]

Hi Trigital,
Doing DSD over HDMI, you'll likely be limited to DSD64 with higher DSD rates needing to be converted to PCM before it leaves the Sony BD X800. I have no experience with DSD256--too high a rate for me--but I strongly suspect it's too much data for HDMI. There are many AV receivers that can receive and process DSD64 over HDMI, but perhaps most do not....u should read the instruction manual of the AV receiver first to confirm. Looking at the DAC chip spec itself is fine, but make sure you read the AV receiver manual because there are many AV receivers that have DSD capable DAC chips but don't actually implement direct DSD and instead require DSD-to-PCM transcoding. Can your Sony BD X800 read your DSD files ok, and where are your files? Network or USB? Also if you're going to do multichannel DSD, then you'll likely want room correction in which case you'll have to do DSD to PCM either in receiver or your Sony X800.

 

[Trigital]

Thank you for this detailed information,

DSD 256 is about 22.6Mbit/sec ( 2MByte...), I don't know if is about the bandwidth of the HDMI.

I use a very old Yamaha 1065 capable to receive DSD64, even multichannel. Of course the room correction can't be done in Pure Mode, meaning that DSD will be chopped into DOP by the receiver.

Maybe because of this argument, new Yamaha receiver's decided to use only a PCM capable DAC.

Although, Sony 800 play flawlessly DSD files 64 / 128 and 256 ( except from ISO ) from my server, using the oficial Sony Music Center for PC.
Indeed, Sony could limit to DSD 64 as output through HDMI, as I remember I read somewhere on Sony website.

Why did Sony bother to make such a great app and such a great player, if limit to 64?
Only because mostly receiver's are limited?
Or, maybe to open the door for iis extractors?

Or, only to show his muscles...

 

[bravomail]

Thank you for this detailed information,

DSD 256 is about 22.6Mbit/sec ( 2MByte...), I don't know if is about the bandwidth of the HDMI.

I use a very old Yamaha 1065 capable to receive DSD64, even multichannel. Of course the room correction can't be done in Pure Mode, meaning that DSD will be chopped into DOP by the receiver.

Maybe because of this argument, new Yamaha receiver's decided to use only a PCM capable DAC.

Although, Sony 800 play flawlessly DSD files 64 / 128 and 256 ( except from ISO ) from my server, using the oficial Sony Music Center for PC.
Indeed, Sony could limit to DSD 64 as output through HDMI, as I remember I read somewhere on Sony website.

Why did Sony bother to make such a great app and such a great player, if limit to 64?
Only because mostly receiver's are limited?
Or, maybe to open the door for iis extractors?

Or, only to show his muscles...

or maybe because DSD is stillborn...

 

[SoundsGood64]

@Trigital, nice that you are able to get the Sony blu ray player to read the DSD files over the network--it makes sense that Sony software would work. The DSD64 limit for HDMI might not be due to Sony. Some but not all of the Denon receivers reviewed here at ASR have the capability to receive 2ch and 5.1ch DSD over HDMI, but only for DSD64 and not higher rate DSD. The Sony blu ray players X800, X800m2, and X1100ES allow DSD playback, including from files above DSD64 rate, but these higher rates must be transferred out of the machine in some way. Higher than DSD64 over HDMI will likely be by PCM...not sure of the limit but I believe at least one possibility is transcoding to PCM 174.2khz. The X1100ES (not your machine) has analog outputs, so perhaps that would be another way to get high res DSD, utilizing the (probably) AK4492 DAC to get DSD-to-analog signal out of the blu-ray player.

As far as I understand,
DSD-over-PCM (DoP) and
DSD-to-PCM on-the-fly transcoding
are distinct and not the same. Typically AV receivers and blu-ray players will do DSD-to-PCM transcoding (if they can even deal with DSD). If any of this is not correct, others please post.

 

[Trigital]

I only add that ( I think ..) Sony doesn't need AK nor ESS....has proprietary solution.

I will search the document from where I read about DSD 64 limit by HDMI.

The topic is about Yamaha A receivers

Can or cannot play native DSD with PCM dac's?

 

[SoundsGood64]

Hi @Trigital

The reason I wrote "(probably) AK4452" is because of this review link below in Italian. I don't read Italian too well, but there is a high-res photo there of the analog stage clearly showing the AK4452 in the x1000es. My post here mentioned the x1100es (not x1000es), thus the 'probably' but perhaps the only key differences between the two is Dolby Vision and software. It's pretty likely the analog stage is the same.

Lettore Sony UHD 4K UBP-X1000ES | Pag 1: Introduzione e caratteristiche

Le caratteristiche del nuovo Sony X1000, compatibile anche con SACD e file audio ad alta risoluzione, ne fanno uno dei lettori UHD 4K più interessanti del momento; oltre alla compatibilità con Netflix, l'uscita audio stereo analogica, è presente anche un controllo RS232 per l'automazione...

www.avmagazine.it

...hopefully someone else here has some direct experience with the Yamaha, didn't at all intend to be off topic, just sharing what I know. If you like Sony, you might consider AV receiver from them. I remember reading at some point their 1070 (?) receiver and maybe others can stream direct DSD, but you should confirm ...and might still work with the same software you're already using.

 

[Krobar]

@Trigital, nice that you are able to get the Sony blu ray player to read the DSD files over the network--it makes sense that Sony software would work. The DSD64 limit for HDMI might not be due to Sony. Some but not all of the Denon receivers reviewed here at ASR have the capability to receive 2ch and 5.1ch DSD over HDMI, but only for DSD64 and not higher rate DSD. The Sony blu ray players X800, X800m2, and X1100ES allow DSD playback, including from files above DSD64 rate, but these higher rates must be transferred out of the machine in some way. Higher than DSD64 over HDMI will likely be by PCM...not sure of the limit but I believe at least one possibility is transcoding to PCM 174.2khz. The X1100ES (not your machine) has analog outputs, so perhaps that would be another way to get high res DSD, utilizing the (probably) AK4492 DAC to get DSD-to-analog signal out of the blu-ray player.

As far as I understand,
DSD-over-PCM (DoP) and
DSD-to-PCM on-the-fly transcoding
are distinct and not the same. Typically AV receivers and blu-ray players will do DSD-to-PCM transcoding (if they can even deal with DSD). If any of this is not correct, others please post.

Thats correct. Most HDMI implementations only support single rate DSD. Many DoP USB implementations support double or quad rate DSD as well.

 

[dougi]

I have never bothered with DSD, but I have some test files downloading from https://bluecoastmusic.com/free-downloads which has up to DSD256 I believe. Oh yeah, I have an A2A. I will try and test it, both via a USB stick, and the same stick via a 4k capable blu-ray player (4k for network files only). I imagine though it will still be impossible to determine what the A2A is actually doing with the DSD, only if it or the BD player is capable of dealing with it at all.

The manual says this via DSD support generally:

BUT, for HDMI:
DSD 2-ch to 6-ch (2.8 MHz)

Sometimes it helps to read the manual!

I daresay if I do test it, will find the same.

 

[SoundsGood64]

Agree with dougi that it can be difficult to tell what a device is doing with the DSD. It could be doing 1) DSD-to-analog or could be doing 2) DSD-to-PCM transcoding followed by PCM-to-analog. Certainly however if the DAC chip cannot do DSD-to-analog by spec sheet then #1 can be ruled out.

The latter #2 can even be the case when the device utilizes a DAC chip that itself is designed to do DSD-to-analog, but this capability is not implemented in the device such as the DRA-800H. When playing a DSD file back over USB or network on the DRA-800H, the screen indicates "DSD 2.8MHZ" but I believe this is just referring to the file source, because by drilling into the menu (Setup->General->Information->Audio), the sample rate is listed as 88.2 khz, indicating DSD-to-PCM transcoding.

 

[dougi]

I did the test. Yes it will play dsd up to the 256 I had, locally off USB. Likely pcm conversion though as even in pure direct mode it still does stereo bass management, hence needs pcm for the DSP. Via HDMI, USB into bd player, could play 64 and 128 but converted to pcm.

 

[Trigital]

Thanks,

Is clear that can't play natively DSD with those DAC's, but I am sure, Yamaha did a good job with DOP.

 

[JcTcom]

This is a bit old. But thought I would chime in with my Experience. I use JRiver Media Center (Currently version 29.xxx) I have found that it picks up my RX-A2A as a DLNA server and it can send native DSD up to DSD256 over the network (Wired). It sounds amazing and on the App it says exactly what Format and level it is playing (DSD 2.8 / DSD 5.6, DSD 11.2 or PCM and Sample Rate if playing PCM files).
Won't play multi-Channel though only Stereo.

The other issue I have it although it plays great it seems to drop the connection after a bit (Anywhere between 10 - 20 songs or so) It automatically reconnects after a minute or so but by that time it has wiped the playlist (The song that was playing at disconnect continues to play to the end To me this indicates that it might not be the RX-A2A that has disconnected from the network?). I don't know if this is the RX-A2A or JRiver or my PC. My connections are wired to the switch and then to the RX-A2A so I really don't know what that is about. If anyone has any ideas how I can test where the problem lies any suggestions would be welcome.

Also in JRiver I have "Audio Mode" set to "Original"

Carl.

 

[voodooless]

Of course the room correction can't be done in Pure Mode, meaning that DSD will be chopped into DOP by the receiver.

That is not at all what it means. DoP is just a DSD transport mechanism to support DSD over PCM only connections. It does not in any way impact the DSD bitstream ultimately processed by the DAC. What any processing on the receiver will do is convert the DSD to PCM, do the processing, and then send the PCM data to the DAC. This has absolutely nothing to do with DoP. In case of the PCM5102a, it can only do PCM, so needs to always do a conversation.

Anyway, (room) processing is way, way, way more beneficial than any presumed advantage that direct DSD playback would bring. So, I’d say: don’t care and enjoy.

 

[Anders ljungberg]

Hello all, I am very new here, please accept my intrusion.

I am looking to rx-a2a spec and I saw it use DAC PCM5102a and support DSD512.

As I tried to learn from TI website, this DAC has only 16/24/32 bit, so in my opinion the DSD 11.2 MHz is available only as DOP.

I have a Sony BD X800 and with Sony Center for PC app, I can stream DSD256 ( DSD 11.2 MHz ) and I would love to find a solution to connect through HDMI to a capable receiver.

Please advice, As far as I can see, you cannot stream in any way to wireless speakers or Bluetooth or similar with DSD. otherwise the user manual does not seem to be very helpful. have you tried transferring from e.g. an external memory via the USB input? . have you checked the sound setting in your Sony Blu-ray player. This one also wants two different HDMI outputs, one for picture and sound and only for sound, note SACD is DSD 64. Yamaha also mentions something about a server software. I recommend you ask Yamaha. if you already own a . otherwise, there is probably SACD in the forum and DSD forum. And web pages for these formats

https://jp.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/9/1335579/web_AV19-0055_RX-A2A_ug_UCRABGLFP_En_D0.pdf

 

[Anders ljungberg]

That is not at all what it means. DoP is just a DSD transport mechanism to support DSD over PCM only connections. It does not in any way impact the DSD bitstream ultimately processed by the DAC. What any processing on the receiver will do is convert the DSD to PCM, do the processing, and then send the PCM data to the DAC. This has absolutely nothing to do with DoP. In case of the PCM5102a, it can only do PCM, so needs to always do a conversation.

Anyway, (room) processing is way, way, way more beneficial than any presumed advantage that direct DSD playback would bring. So, I’d say: don’t care and enjoy.

What then is the purpose of the setting in the Sony player to choose between outputting as DSD or PCM. . pioneer here also had such an Setting in their players For SACD note SACD is only DSD 64. What I have understood

 

[Anders ljungberg]

Hello all, I am very new here, please accept my intrusion.

I am looking to rx-a2a spec and I saw it use DAC PCM5102a and support DSD512.

As I tried to learn from TI website, this DAC has only 16/24/32 bit, so in my opinion the DSD 11.2 MHz is available only as DOP.

I have a Sony BD X800 and with Sony Center for PC app, I can stream DSD256 ( DSD 11.2 MHz ) and I would love to find a solution to connect through HDMI to a capable receiver.

Please advice,

Yamaha says it supports up to 11.2 MHz .under Files categories

 

[Anders ljungberg]

Thank you for this detailed information,

DSD 256 is about 22.6Mbit/sec ( 2MByte...), I don't know if is about the bandwidth of the HDMI.

I use a very old Yamaha 1065 capable to receive DSD64, even multichannel. Of course the room correction can't be done in Pure Mode, meaning that DSD will be chopped into DOP by the receiver.

Maybe because of this argument, new Yamaha receiver's decided to use only a PCM capable DAC.

Although, Sony 800 play flawlessly DSD files 64 / 128 and 256 ( except from ISO ) from my server, using the oficial Sony Music Center for PC.
Indeed, Sony could limit to DSD 64 as output through HDMI, as I remember I read somewhere on Sony website.

Why did Sony bother to make such a great app and such a great player, if limit to 64?
Only because mostly receiver's are limited?
Or, maybe to open the door for iis extractors?

Or, only to show

You also cannot use the dynamic compression feature. Why don't you contact Yamaha they are also on Facebook

 

[voodooless]

What then is the purpose of the setting in the Sony player to choose between outputting as DSD or PCM.

Because not all target devices support DSD.