Yamaha AS-1100 & AS-2200 integrated amplifier

[maty]

Off topic,

If someone is interested in Luxman amps, should be informed about how it does the error correction -> ODNF.

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/312866-global-loop-amplification.html

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/238252-odnf-gnfb-power-amp.html

* https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/848-luxman-l-550ax-integrated-amplifier

* [Polish] https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/wzmacniacze-stereo/949-luxman-l-550ax

* https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/341363-simpelstark-odnf-amplifier-boards-gb.html

With a beautiful monotonously decreasing harmonic profile:

- End off topic -

 

[anmpr1]

FWIW, I've owned two Yamaha amplifiers, and both worked. One a CA-1010, I think it was. Had meters and a lot of switches. One switch put the unit in Class A, and lowered output significantly. I couldn't hear any difference between A and AB. I still have an AX-592 in a closet somewhere. It's at least 20 or 30 years old, but still runs. David Rich reviewed it in an old Audio Critic and found it to be pretty good. Nothing special, and not as good as the model it replaced, but at least as good if not better than the competition, at the time. The amp part was quite strong in the power cube department.

These new Yamaha amps don't look as nice as Lux, but they are a lot cheaper. I'd worry about buying a Lux or Accuphase and then getting it serviced if that was required. If I was in the market for an integrated amp I'd look at the Yamaha mid-range line. Like the 501, which seems good value for the price. No way would I drop seven thousand dollars for their top of the line integrated. Good grief!

 

[JJB70]

No, he's asking all the right questions. He's got a Sony TAF-700 which along with the TAF-800 (444esX and 555esg) which is a fabulous amplifier. It's built to an excellent standard and performs faultlessly. How do I know? I've got a 444esxII, a 333ESR and a 730es (same as each other) as well as probably another dozen ES pieces including two TAN77es power amps and 4 TAE77es/d preamps, several DATs etc.

The only real contenders to replace the Sony would be the current range Yamahas. The Luxmans are too expensive and honestly not up to the standard they should be for the price. Personally, having played with them all (Yamahas) including the AS-3000 and studied their schematics, construction and finish, I wouldn't be swapping any of my Sony gear for them, even though I could have bought them at cost.



There's absolutely no doubt whatsoever the quality dropped off a cliff when Yamaha purpose built the Malaysian factory. The first few batches of receivers (low end 2 channel ones) in 1992 came off that line and about 50% of them went back. I refused to sell receivers and CD players out of the Malaysian factory and when they started speakers- oh my goodness, they were bad. But the trouble is, even now, 26 years later, the speakers out of malaysia are still poorly made inside. The cabinetry is dreadful. Sure the rest of the lines have improved, but they needed to.

But I digress, the AS-2100 is nothing special. It may look the goods from the outside, but I am going to bet they will be landfill in 10-15 years due to the entire amplifier being run by a completely unnecessary micro and riddled with SMD electros. I do not need a stinkin' microprocessor controlled 2 channel integrated amplifier. The most I will tolerate is remote volume and source selection via the micro. The Yamaha is SMD, all lead-free, all not component level repairable on the low level boards. Even the amplifier boards are riddled with SMD.

The placement of this IC, uncovered means any and all dust and detritus will likely cause issues down the track, especially where moisture is concerned. The unit I saw had vents in front, but the main horizontal board and its IC only had a small central piece of metal over it- leaving the most vulnerable parts exposed.
View attachment 32478
The Sony on the other hand uses some of finest Sanken outputs ever made, is completely discrete through hole and every part is still available to repair it nearly 30 years after it was made. It's got a fantastic transformer, a chassis unlike anything else (Gibraltar cast), and solid, grub-screwed knobs, no superfluous BS and looks great. OK, it doesn't have meters, but trust me, I turn mine off most of the time on my big amps.

The OP would do well to locate a Sony TAF-730es (for the UK) or a TAF-333esR (Japanese/Asian with Rosewood sides) model. These were two years after the 700es and for whatever reason, they sound much better. They also tested basically without flaws.

Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for!! Sounds like under a very nice exterior the Yamahas aren’t quite what I seek, although I suspect they are the nearest thing in terms of gear I’d be willing to buy (Accuphase is very expensive). I will have a look for the TA-F730ES, if I remember rightly (and I probably don’t) that was the model that was in the Sony catalogue when I bought my current amplifier however the dealer offered me an excellent price for an obsolete TA-F700 they wanted to offload. And the TA-F700 was a wonderful piece of kit, it also had the Gibraltar chassis. I might look at costs and consider whether the most sensible thing might be to just pay to have my current amplifier overhauled. It’s been such a solid and dependable old thing and at the risk of sounding silly I feel rather attached to it now. Even if I do buy a new amplifier I intend keeping it.



On Yamaha speakers, don’t they have a factory in Indonesia? I am sure I’ve seen made in Indonesia on some of their speakers, including the high end Soavo models.

 

[Krunok]

I might look at costs and consider whether the most sensible thing might be to just pay to have my current amplifier overhauled. It’s been such a solid and dependable old thing and at the risk of sounding silly I feel rather attached to it now. Even if I do buy a new amplifier I intend keeping it.

Well, if that is the case isn't overhauling actually your best choice?

 

[JJB70]

Well, if that is the case isn't overhauling actually your best choice?

Depends on the price, if it's not that expensive I might consider having it overhauled and buying something else, if it is going to cost a lot (even shipping one of these things will be expensive as it must be 20 odd kg and will need to be well packaged as I believe the chassis can break if dropped) then I will keep it as is. Either way after the best part of 30 years I think it needs a good service if I want to keep it as my principal amplifier.

 

[JJB70]

I've just been looking at archive pictures of old statement amplifiers from Sony and Pioneer and they are just gorgeous to look at. OK, it's not SQ and I am not denying the tremendous performance of class D, the tremendous value for money and accessibility of modern audio and progress in general, and I know this is just a purely personal and subjective preference for objects but I do miss those old pieces. I think budget amplifiers like the entry level Yamaha amplifiers, low cost class D amplifiers from China and even the hidden class D amps in smart speakers offer sound quality which is transparent and offer plenty of efficient power and as such are much more sensible buys. But, there is something about the tactile feel of perfectly weighted controls, immaculate fit and finish, beautiful internal arrangements and bomb proof quality of those old tanks that I just love and value.

 

[maty]

Just now, xrk971 wrote:

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/gro...eference-design-class-amp-gb-post5902356.html

If we look at TI datasheet, it would suggest that THD+N should be about 10x less. That is, in the 0.00x% range, not 0.0x% range. With the Class A amps (and Class AB) that I design, I aim for a dominant second harmonic and a monotonically descending higher orders, and as few higher orders as possible. Basically only H2 and H3 would be ideal. Such is the case with the Alpha amps. However, this so Class D where the signal is reconstructed from a modulated carrier, I am not quite sure what to expect with the profile.

 

[garbulky]

The old XPA-2 (without gen 2):

https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/emotiva-xpa-2/xpa-2-measurements

Emotiva XPA-1 Gen 2

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...xpa-1-gen-2-monoblock-power-amplifier-review/

View attachment 32494

XPA-1 8 Ohm Class A Data 12.5Watts


View attachment 32495

XPA-1 8 Ohm Class A/B Data 12.5Watts


Ideally, there should be no harmonics above -90 dB. Much less that these are H3 or, worse, H5. That is why I would not buy those Yamaha for my home to play music.

Updated: now the last two pictures (optimized) are in ASR.

The XPA-2 measurement was at 1 watt. But yeah none of those would win amplifier measurement contests. The XPA-1 I was surprised did that well. I think they had their SNR listed in the upper 70's.
However, all I can say is which sounded better to me (subjectively). The XPA-2, XPA-1 gen 2's, and PA-1 sound better than any other amps I've listened to - at least in regular use. I haven't performed a DBT test on them, which I likely would fail.

 

[SimpleTheater]

Thanks for the link, it's more the constructional quality (standard of components, assembly etc) I'm concerned about. Call me a cloth eared and tone deaf ignoramus but in terms of SQ I'd be happy with a cheap alternative (if looking at Yamaha for example, their AS-201 and AS-301 entry level models sound fine). As I say, I know this may sound silly to most here, but I have a passion for superior build and tactile feel and consider such quality worth paying for even if I don't think SQ will be noticeably better.

I own both the A-S2100 and CD-S2100. The build quality is exceptional. My two channel listening room isn’t very large so I’ve never tested the amplifier at more than 1/2 volume. Speakers are Tannoy Definition DC8 TI’s.

I know exactly how you feel about paying for build/feel/looks even if SQ isn’t better. One area I was pleasantly surprised was the A-S2100’s headphone output. Usually this is an afterthought, but it is exceptional in this unit. My AKG K812’s aren’t hard to drive, but they didn’t sound great in an iPhone or a computer or a old Onkyo stereo receiver. They sound fantastic in the Yamaha and I recently bought a JDS Labs Element which sounds equally as good as the Yamaha but the JDS does have higher output and can drive more difficult headphones.

Overall, if feel is important to you, the Yamaha’s won’t disappoint.

 

[MattS]

Here are a couple of articles worth reading...

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/yamaha-a-s3000-integrated-amplifier/?page=2
https://www.stevehuffphoto.com/the-yamaha-a-s-3000-integrated-amp-review/

I currently own the A-S3000 and Soavo speakers... the build quality is simply second to none (and I am super fussy)... I find the sound amazing... the amp simply lets the music flow and the speakers simply disappear... as far as build quality of Yamaha speakers goes, the Yamaha Soavo are crafted magnificently... the black piano finish is flawless... fit and finish is as good as it gets... and the internal construction is 'old fashioned' in many ways with mitered construction and so on... my dealer had a cut away of an NS-F901... it was something to admire...

 

[anmpr1]

... the amp simply lets the music flow...

I once had an amplifier that didn't do that. I couldn't figure it out. I said to myself, "Why isn't the music 'flowing' "? In order to investigate, I took off the top panel and found that a capacitor had leaked sticky gunk all over the circuit board. I came to recognize that it is much better if the music flows, than the gunk inside a capacitor.

That said, I've owned two Yamaha integrated amplifiers, and have been pretty happy with them. I can't exactly get excited over the AS-3000; at that price point, and given what can be had elsewhere, I think there are much better options. But that's just me. Certainly the AS-3000 is quite handsome, and from the looks department it fits what could be expected at its price.

Now, if only someone could explain why Yamaha's top of the line, super-expensive record player has no tonearm offset? What is that about? If that's how they design record players, I hope those engineers don't get involved in amp design. Recently someone here at ASR posted a video of some Yamaha engineers sitting on a couch, pulling out circuit board components, and replacing them with different types, in order to get that "European" sound. It was supposed to be the special sound they like over there, on the continent. When I see that sort of thing, it makes me not hold out any high hopes for the brand. But maybe these things are an aberration.

 

[tulpomanie]

It is true that the H3 of the A-S1100 is not good.
However, the H3 of the A-S2100 and A-S3000 is controlled to less than -90dB.
I think you missed these reports in the CD player + amp category.

https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/odtwarzacz-cd-wzmacniacz/1510-yamaha-cd-s2100-a-s2100

https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/odtwarzacz-cd-wzmacniacz/1500-yamaha-cd-s3000-a-s3000

 

[KaiserSoze]

The external fit and finish and tactile feel of the 1100 and 2100 is excellent, in fact the thing that has really sucked me into considering them is the very fact that they do very much look and feel like Japanese high end gear from 30 years ago. And they have VU meters and side panels.

In terms of specification both are more than sufficient for my needs and Yamaha 2 channel gear tends to be accurately specified unlike the power gaming of multi-channel AVRs.

Rotel are another company I have a lot of respect for, they always seem to have stayed true to their values of producing down to earth very well designed and built gear at sensible prices. In fact initially the two amplifiers I was considering were the Rotel A14 and Yamaha AS801, both of which are well specified nice feeling amplifiers with DACs on board.

However my eyes wandered and were drawn to the retro look and tank like qualities of the 1100 and 2100 and the shop is offering a very good deal on them. They are probably worse than the Rotel and 801 if looked at sensibly as they lose the digital inputs and both the A14and 801 perform well (I would be amazed if there is a meaningful discernible difference in SQ between them and the more expensive 1100, or indeed from cheaper entry level models at the power I need).

There is a big jump in price from the AS801 to the bigger integrated amps, and I believe the bigger ones with VU meters are missing a feature that I really like in the less expensive models: the variable loudness control. The great thing about a variable loudness control is that without one, the amount of perceived bass and treble changes whenever you change the volume. This is a very basic thing that was widely understood until three or four decades ago, when for whatever reason most everyone seems to have forgotten about it.

 

[KaiserSoze]

No, he's asking all the right questions. He's got a Sony TAF-700 which along with the TAF-800 (444esX and 555esg) which is a fabulous amplifier. It's built to an excellent standard and performs faultlessly. How do I know? I've got a 444esxII, a 333ESR and a 730es (same as each other) as well as probably another dozen ES pieces including two TAN77es power amps and 4 TAE77es/d preamps, several DATs etc.

The only real contenders to replace the Sony would be the current range Yamahas. The Luxmans are too expensive and honestly not up to the standard they should be for the price. Personally, having played with them all (Yamahas) including the AS-3000 and studied their schematics, construction and finish, I wouldn't be swapping any of my Sony gear for them, even though I could have bought them at cost.



There's absolutely no doubt whatsoever the quality dropped off a cliff when Yamaha purpose built the Malaysian factory. The first few batches of receivers (low end 2 channel ones) in 1992 came off that line and about 50% of them went back. I refused to sell receivers and CD players out of the Malaysian factory and when they started speakers- oh my goodness, they were bad. But the trouble is, even now, 26 years later, the speakers out of malaysia are still poorly made inside. The cabinetry is dreadful. Sure the rest of the lines have improved, but they needed to.

But I digress, the AS-2100 is nothing special. It may look the goods from the outside, but I am going to bet they will be landfill in 10-15 years due to the entire amplifier being run by a completely unnecessary micro and riddled with SMD electros. I do not need a stinkin' microprocessor controlled 2 channel integrated amplifier. The most I will tolerate is remote volume and source selection via the micro. The Yamaha is SMD, all lead-free, all not component level repairable on the low level boards. Even the amplifier boards are riddled with SMD.

The placement of this IC, uncovered means any and all dust and detritus will likely cause issues down the track, especially where moisture is concerned. The unit I saw had vents in front, but the main horizontal board and its IC only had a small central piece of metal over it- leaving the most vulnerable parts exposed.
View attachment 32478
The Sony on the other hand uses some of finest Sanken outputs ever made, is completely discrete through hole and every part is still available to repair it nearly 30 years after it was made. It's got a fantastic transformer, a chassis unlike anything else (Gibraltar cast), and solid, grub-screwed knobs, no superfluous BS and looks great. OK, it doesn't have meters, but trust me, I turn mine off most of the time on my big amps.

The OP would do well to locate a Sony TAF-730es (for the UK) or a TAF-333esR (Japanese/Asian with Rosewood sides) model. These were two years after the 700es and for whatever reason, they sound much better. They also tested basically without flaws.

I don't mean to take this off-topic, but since you clearly know a lot about Yamaha quality since manufacturing moved to Malaysia, and about their speakers, I want to ask you you're opinion of the NS-777. I haven't been able to find any measurements but if you don't look past the surface they appear to be a bargain. True 3-way with dual 8" woofers, for a decent price. Do you think they're junk or a good value at the going price?

 

[KaiserSoze]

FWIW, I've owned two Yamaha amplifiers, and both worked. One a CA-1010, I think it was. Had meters and a lot of switches. One switch put the unit in Class A, and lowered output significantly. I couldn't hear any difference between A and AB. I still have an AX-592 in a closet somewhere. It's at least 20 or 30 years old, but still runs. David Rich reviewed it in an old Audio Critic and found it to be pretty good. Nothing special, and not as good as the model it replaced, but at least as good if not better than the competition, at the time. The amp part was quite strong in the power cube department.

These new Yamaha amps don't look as nice as Lux, but they are a lot cheaper. I'd worry about buying a Lux or Accuphase and then getting it serviced if that was required. If I was in the market for an integrated amp I'd look at the Yamaha mid-range line. Like the 501, which seems good value for the price. No way would I drop seven thousand dollars for their top of the line integrated. Good grief!

I also like the 501. It has the variable loudness control that I consider to be an extremely useful feature in a stereo setup, and the power is down by only 3 dB to 5 dB vs. the bigger far more expensive amps. I even like the 301.

 

[restorer-john]

I don't mean to take this off-topic, but since you clearly know a lot about Yamaha quality since manufacturing moved to Malaysia, and about their speakers, I want to ask you you're opinion of the NS-777. I haven't been able to find any measurements but if you don't look past the surface they appear to be a bargain. True 3-way with dual 8" woofers, for a decent price. Do you think they're junk or a good value at the going price?

They moved to Malaysia nearly 30 years ago now and from what I've seen, the majority of their products are good to excellent. I have however serious reservations with the loudspeakers out of Malaysia. Having been inside a lot of them, I was frankly disappointed. The MDF and board in general is nasty. You can bet it's not E0 or likely even E1 based on what I have seen and smelled. E0 is the most expensive MDF, but is better for everyone, including the environment. Formaldehyde is a serious carcinogen and speakers are notorious for it.

The Yamaha Malaysian drivers themselves were pretty OK quality. Crossovers were poorly assembled and there were lots of scraps of random offcuts glued inside to strengthen joints.

Here's a video I found on youtube with the guts of the NS-777 you asked about. It appears to be OK inside. Nothing spectacular.

 

[KaiserSoze]

They moved to Malaysia nearly 30 years ago now and from what I've seen, the majority of their products are good to excellent. I have however serious reservations with the loudspeakers out of Malaysia. Having been inside a lot of them, I was frankly disappointed. The MDF and board in general is nasty. You can bet it's not E0 or likely even E1 based on what I have seen and smelled. E0 is the most expensive MDF, but is better for everyone, including the environment. Formaldehyde is a serious carcinogen and speakers are notorious for it.

The Yamaha Malaysian drivers themselves were pretty OK quality. Crossovers were poorly assembled and there were lots of scraps of random offcuts glued inside to strengthen joints.

Here's a video I found on youtube with the guts of the NS-777 you asked about. It appears to be OK inside. Nothing spectacular.

Thank you for your comments and for finding that video.

Interesting video, but of course you can't really tell much from it. There probably wasn't much point in sealing the inside corners of the enclosure unless there were cracks visible at the outside. It looks like those little braces had been glued in kind of sloppily but they probably did the job, and there are plenty of speakers that don't have any corner bracing of that sort. One question that occurred to me while watching it has to do with the inductors in the crossover. None of them looked very big, but they appeared to be wound on ferrous spools and with a very small wire gauge. You can't tell which one is in series with the woofer (possibly two but not likely given that one will also be in series with the midrange), and you can't see the wire for a couple of them. Even though you can't see it, I still was caused to wonder what wire gauge is used in series with the woofer. It might be small enough for DC Ohms to make a difference in the woofer level. And those two woofers are most likely wired simply in parallel (17 Ohm each), which is okay so long as the crossover point to the midrange is not higher than about 300 Hz. All in all I'm still drawing a blank. Seems like they are a good value, but one of the unknowns is Xmax for the woofers, and if you don't know that you can't really be certain that a pair of 8" woofers is really any better than a single 6.5" woofer used in some other speaker. What to do, what to do.

 

[restorer-john]

What to do, what to do.

If they are inexpensive and in good condition, buy them and see what you think. Speakers such as those can be phenomenal value when they are good and you don't lose much if they are horrible.

 

[helom]

Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for!! Sounds like under a very nice exterior the Yamahas aren’t quite what I seek, although I suspect they are the nearest thing in terms of gear I’d be willing to buy (Accuphase is very expensive). I will have a look for the TA-F730ES, if I remember rightly (and I probably don’t) that was the model that was in the Sony catalogue when I bought my current amplifier however the dealer offered me an excellent price for an obsolete TA-F700 they wanted to offload. And the TA-F700 was a wonderful piece of kit, it also had the Gibraltar chassis. I might look at costs and consider whether the most sensible thing might be to just pay to have my current amplifier overhauled. It’s been such a solid and dependable old thing and at the risk of sounding silly I feel rather attached to it now. Even if I do buy a new amplifier I intend keeping it.



On Yamaha speakers, don’t they have a factory in Indonesia? I am sure I’ve seen made in Indonesia on some of their speakers, including the high end Soavo models.

I wouldn’t make such a determination on one poster’s disdain for the brand. My A-S1100 has operated flawlessly for 3 years and the carbon-film PS capacitors won’t likely need replacement for a lifetime of ownership. My amp runs cooler than a lot of the Sony ES stuff, and for that reason alone, it will likely be more reliable in the long run. I’ve yet to own a Sony product outside the ES stuff that didn’t crap out within a couple years of new. The one and only time I experienced a failure with a Yamaha product (out of many I’ve owned) was a lightning strike.

And the circuit may not be very unique within the Yamaha family but a circlotron design is indeed very unusual within the industry.

Anyhow, I’ve owned or auditioned nearly all the major players in the integrated market under $3.5K and the Yammies perform at the top with the best of them, even challenging some combos of separates.

 

[helom]

Thank you for your comments and for finding that video.

Interesting video, but of course you can't really tell much from it. There probably wasn't much point in sealing the inside corners of the enclosure unless there were cracks visible at the outside. It looks like those little braces had been glued in kind of sloppily but they probably did the job, and there are plenty of speakers that don't have any corner bracing of that sort. One question that occurred to me while watching it has to do with the inductors in the crossover. None of them looked very big, but they appeared to be wound on ferrous spools and with a very small wire gauge. You can't tell which one is in series with the woofer (possibly two but not likely given that one will also be in series with the midrange), and you can't see the wire for a couple of them. Even though you can't see it, I still was caused to wonder what wire gauge is used in series with the woofer. It might be small enough for DC Ohms to make a difference in the woofer level. And those two woofers are most likely wired simply in parallel (17 Ohm each), which is okay so long as the crossover point to the midrange is not higher than about 300 Hz. All in all I'm still drawing a blank. Seems like they are a good value, but one of the unknowns is Xmax for the woofers, and if you don't know that you can't really be certain that a pair of 8" woofers is really any better than a single 6.5" woofer used in some other speaker. What to do, what to do.

These speakers have typical, arguably superior, construction for their price point. Anyone who knows speakers wouldn’t expect more from a 500€ pair of non-DIY towers. One can possibly expect a little better from some of the factory-direct brands but to expect more from a 500€ pair of large towers is just ignorance on the part of that video poster.