Yamaha A-S701 Stereo Amplifier Review

[catch22]

Remember that Wiim have a great support and the software changes are resolved with firmware upgrades

Yeah, deep inside I kinda hope it will last a long time. My rant about obsolescence was caused by older MusicCast devices no longer supporting newer streaming options.

 

[ZolaIII]

@mooseandbeau like new visual... for how how long did it work?
I live in a *hity part of the world and right now I could get R-N 800A new for little more than 600$ (30% off from local dealer). Want to say don't rush in it's not exactly stellar offer hard to pass (like silver A-S 1200 in great condition for 500$).
Don't get me wrong WiiM's best it's their first and simplest to the nature what streamer is (WiFi board) WiiM Mini. I ain't exactly happy how they treated ADC section on anything and more expensive it is I get less happy.

Old A-S 700 with mechanic input selector had best unbalanced input (110 dB SNR) which could rival even some balanced ones. Today you can find such only much higher up the series. When they used class leading designs of the time DAC's (BurrBrown golden day's or ESS32 in current R-N lineup and less important as DAC's still did advance) all do their implementations where never top it whose better to use Toslink as input and anyhow to do DSP-ing somewhere else.
Just ignore WiiM amp comparations (like I did).

 

[900SL]

With 500 usd you can get a wiim amp with the same power, led screen, streamer, phono input, bluetooth, whatever.

You need to like very (very) much the Yamaha to prefer it. Obviously, we can't discuss taste, it's only my opinion.

The damping factor and power delivery across the full frequency range is better in the Yamaha, is it not?

 

[voodooless]

The damping factor and power delivery across the full frequency range is better in the Yamaha, is it not?

Unless you have speakers that have an impedance of 2R and below, there will not be any appreciable difference. They will sound exactly the same, just like any competent amp.

So all this boils down to is looks and features. That Yamaha amp looks very stylish, it has more inputs, and will drive very low impedance speakers with more power. The WiiM is smaller, has a nice screen, and above all: room correction and a usable subwoofer output. That will, in the end, make the biggest difference, sound-quality-wise. You'll have to get something like an R-N803 to get close to feature parity (the WiiM will still be more flexible in the DSP department). It costs a bit more, but at least you'll have the Yamaha look and feel

 

[ZolaIII]

Unless you have speakers that have an impedance of 2R and below, there will not be any appreciable difference. They will sound exactly the same, just like any competent amp.

So all this boils down to is looks and features. That Yamaha amp looks very stylish, it has more inputs, and will drive very low impedance speakers with more power. The WiiM is smaller, has a nice screen, and above all: room correction and a usable subwoofer output. That will, in the end, make the biggest difference, sound-quality-wise. You'll have to get something like an R-N803 to get close to feature parity (the WiiM will still be more flexible in the DSP department). It costs a bit more, but at least you'll have the Yamaha look and feel

No they won't. WiiM didn't do a homework and noise increase with frequency is there and you can hear the difference at second harmonic for most materials there are. We can argue how important timber area is. +4 dB output power doesn't sound as much but it's more than double in W and up to 2x distance coverage in room. To me neither has good DSP section tho uper R-N recent range (2000A) has some interesting additions like YPAO automatic loudness (compensation) which is specifically hard to get this day's. Yamaha has 2x life expectations (traditional iron core transformer vs switching one). As far the power amplifier alone goes Yamaha does that part quit good for those feeling advantures enough there are ironed out JM clones (with replacement non Sunken pairs) in DIY space.
Hopefully WiiM will improve in the future regarding authending highs and start using better ADC's especially in their higher priced tier as quit frankly they aren't even competitive with similar manufacturers who actually listened to ASR advices and improved their products. I don't have high hopes regarding DSP section for both of them with WiiM it's more hype and with Yamaha who knows what wired philosophy (and old AVR parts). That's just my 10¢ and influenced with what I consider good and sufficient regarding DSP chain. A-S 700 + Mini DSP Flex beat many possible setups for reasonable amount of money and you still need better ELC if we insist on all in one stand alone DSP for music.

 

[voodooless]

WiiM didn't do a homework and noise increase with frequency is there and you can hear the difference at second harmonic for most materials there are.

And proof of that is where?

There is no 4dB more power either. Both are about equal in power. You do realize we're comparing WiiM Amp Ultra (price around $500), not the Wiim Amp.

As to the ADC, yeah, it's not pretty, but at least it's there.

 

[ZolaIII]

And proof of that is where?

In measurements of course. To reference SPL calibration point 85 dB (mono), to listening tests 75 dB SINAD for power amplifier and 100 dB to theory hearing threshold. Now observe 5 & 10 KHz plots in power vs distortion plots. Really it's not that expensive to correct and athend it proper on class D (as Fosi, Topping and others shown) and still thing that needs to be done if you ask me. While looking at distortion vs frequency plots for let's say WiiM Amp Ultra keep in mind those are with Toslink (100 dB SINAD @1 KHz) with ADC they go 13 dB down I mean that's standard ADC performance for pro stage equipment this day's.
You don't think trying to push manufacturer to improve reasonably for small fee and some engenering work is a bad thing?

 

[voodooless]

In measurements of course. To reference SPL calibration point 85 dB (mono), to listening tests 75 dB SINAD for power amplifier and 100 dB to theory hearing threshold. Now observe 5 & 10 KHz plots in power vs distortion plots.

None of this is actually audible... at 10 kHz, distortion products are beyond what (most) people can hear. And even at 5 Khz, levels are already so low, and the hearing is not sensitive enough to pick any of this up and masked by music content. The 100 dB threshold is very theoretical, covers the whole spectrum, and is very reliant on the noise spec.

Really it's not that expensive to correct and athend it proper on class D (as Fosi, Topping and others shown) and still thing that needs to be done if you ask me. While looking at distortion vs frequency plots for let's say WiiM Amp Ultra keep in mind those are with Toslink (100 dB SINAD @1 KHz) with ADC they go 13 dB down I mean that's standard ADC performance for pro stage equipment this day's.

Yes, the analog input isn't as good. I bet most people don't use it. If you must, see it as a compromise, or get something else

You don't think trying to push manufacturer to improve reasonably for small fee and some engenering work is a bad thing?

That's not what this is about. I'm all for improving a product

 

[ZolaIII]

@voodooless but 75 dB SINAD listening tests aren't theoreticall tho can't be called methodical perfected either. Actual aim is in between for second harmonic of most instruments (3 to 7 KHz) and relevance goes up to 12.5 KHz and I assure you most folks hear that far however there won't be much content (informations) to hear there to start with.

It's 120 dB in mids where our hearing is most sensitive and falls gradually with frequency increase and more sharply how it decreases.
If we can consider such upgrade to traditional class D (rail Voltage regulation with V pump) as a done thing (I do) and for small price in parts what are they waiting for?
ADC part it is what it is and I am all for 4 separate costume mapable high quality DAC chenel outputs but somehow that's the part that will be very hard to convince manufacturers to go with.
Why would you perhaps need better ADC? Well bunch of property stuff (Dolby's and such) which well you have to hijack in order to manipulate (DSP), most not licensed things won't even mix down properly.
Aiming at 100 dB SINAD for ADC this day's isn't like aiming at the star's. As already stated mid 80's performance is up to deacent Pro equipment not that we can't find much better in every aspect (pro MOTU interfaces, consumer space old PCI-E cards, hobby instrumental field E1DA Cosmos...), in other words considered mediocre.

Please don't start discussing about timber frequency range and impact.

 

[voodooless]

@voodooless but 75 dB SINAD listening tests aren't theoreticall tho can't be called methodical perfected either. Actual aim is in between for second harmonic of most instruments (3 to 7 KHz) and relevance goes up to 12.5 KHz and I assure you most folks hear that far however there won't be much content (informations) to hear there to start with.

If you think any of this is audible, good luck with your ABX test...

It is arguably more transparent than the Yamaha it's compared to.

ADC part it is what it is and I am all for 4 separate costume mapable high quality DAC chenel outputs but somehow that's the part that will be very hard to convince manufacturers to go with.
Why would you perhaps need better ADC? Well bunch of property stuff (Dolby's and such) which well you have to hijack in order to manipulate (DSP), most not licensed things won't even mix down properly.

That isn't exactly a use case for the WiiM Amp, is it? And if so, it's very niche, and there are probably plenty of other devices that would suit better. The WiiM Amp Ultra is for sure not for everyone. Would it reach a wider audience with a better ADC? Probably.

Aiming at 100 dB SINAD for ADC this day's isn't like aiming at the star's. As already stated mid 80's performance is up to deacent Pro equipment not that we can't find much better in every aspect (pro MOTU interfaces, consumer space old PCI-E cards, hobby instrumental field E1DA Cosmos...), in other words considered mediocre.

These things are made to a price point. The ADC certainly is there primarily for convenience, not as a primary function of the device. I never said it's not a compromise. It's just one that many consumers will gladly live with.

Please don't start discussing about timber frequency range and impact.

I won't if you don't

 

[ZolaIII]

@voodooless please check your eye sight.


Nothing to argue about there.
Now we come to sensitivity (per W @8 Ohms) for tweater which is usually quite high. When combined with power amplifiers with noise flor above it you get audible static manifested as hiss from it. Now don't tell me either how WiiM's power amp stages are better then what's on average used in good quality studio monitors or how 10 of K of complains about such in monitors doesn't apply to speakers you will pair with WiiM Amp. Even if you can't clear distinct it in material reproduction you sure can hear it when it doesn't do anything and it's particularly annoying to many people (no doubt about audibility). The 4 chenels unbalanced are incredible more useful (at least in home speaker reproduction) then true balanced waste of DAC to have 2 chenels (with 2~3 dB differentiation performance benefit).
Use case is to user and pretty much everyone watches a movie from time to time and why not with benefits?
I will gladly take a bullet paying cuple bucks more for better ADC IP and cuple more for parts for V pump (lying actually have less then a year old A-S 700 which will serve me longer then my hearing will but if I needed power amplifier I would). We aren't talking about huge amount of money or expensive stuff yet benefits are real. Real improvements not glossary.
So aggre to disagree and I certainly won't start about timber I level that to more poetic subjectivists (still hopefully nowhere close to this place).

 

[kharan]

@voodooless please check your eye sight.
View attachment 508865
View attachment 508866
Nothing to argue about there.
Now we come to sensitivity (per W @8 Ohms) for tweater which is usually quite high. When combined with power amplifiers with noise flor above it you get audible static manifested as hiss from it. Now don't tell me either how WiiM's power amp stages are better then what's on average used in good quality studio monitors or how 10 of K of complains about such in monitors doesn't apply to speakers you will pair with WiiM Amp. Even if you can't clear distinct it in material reproduction you sure can hear it when it doesn't do anything and it's particularly annoying to many people (no doubt about audibility). The 4 chenels unbalanced are incredible more useful (at least in home speaker reproduction) then true balanced waste of DAC to have 2 chenels (with 2~3 dB differentiation performance benefit).
Use case is to user and pretty much everyone watches a movie from time to time and why not with benefits?
I will gladly take a bullet paying cuple bucks more for better ADC IP and cuple more for parts for V pump (lying actually have less then a year old A-S 700 which will serve me longer then my hearing will but if I needed power amplifier I would). We aren't talking about huge amount of money or expensive stuff yet benefits are real. Real improvements not glossary.
So aggre to disagree and I certainly won't start about timber I level that to more poetic subjectivists (still hopefully nowhere close to this place).

These charts don't show the Wiim having more distortion in any meaningful way. Firstly the 15 kHz line is nice to see to characterise amplifier behaviour, but irrelevant from a sound point of view since no one hears 30 kHz.

So let's consider the 10 kHz line. At 50 mW, it's at -70 dB roughly for both, so we're looking at -70 dB relative to the voltage needed for 50 mW. Both equal, both inaudible.

Let's then consider both at high power, at 100W. The Wiim has a THD of -70 dB vs -76 dB for the Yamaha. Are you going to hear a 20 kHz harmonic buried in very high volume music? I highly doubt that.

What about active speakers and hiss? The difference is that in passive speakers the sensitivity of the tweeter is lowered to match that of the woofer, so it's even more unlikely you'll see an issue here regardless of the amp.

There are advantages to the Yamaha, but lower treble distorsion isn't one of them.

 

[voodooless]

@voodooless please check your eye sight.
View attachment 508865
View attachment 508866
Nothing to argue about there.

There is everything to argue about! Because you're missing the critical part here:

So if the multitone is clear until -90 dB, and the THD+N vs frequency shows a worse result, it means that any distortion or noise is beyond 20 kHz. And here, it's most likely not distortion components, but Class D quantisation noise. Again: this is inaudible!

Now we come to sensitivity (per W @8 Ohms) for tweater which is usually quite high. When combined with power amplifiers with noise flor above it you get audible static manifested as hiss from it.

There is no hiss. Noise is 90 dB down at 20 kHz.

Now don't tell me either how WiiM's power amp stages are better then what's on average used in good quality studio monitors or how 10 of K of complains about such in monitors doesn't apply to speakers you will pair with WiiM Amp. Even if you can't clear distinct it in material reproduction you sure can hear it when it doesn't do anything and it's particularly annoying to many people (no doubt about audibility). The 4 chenels unbalanced are incredible more useful (at least in home speaker reproduction) then true balanced waste of DAC to have 2 chenels (with 2~3 dB differentiation performance benefit).

What does a random studio monitor have to do with the WiiM? This is just silly. Conincidentally, in the 24 pages of the Wiim Amp Ultra review thread, nobody mentioned any hiss...

Use case is to user and pretty much everyone watches a movie from time to time and why not with benefits?

WiiM amp ultra has HDMI ARC, it can even control other WiiM devices wirelessly as surround speakers! You don't need to have an ADC for any of that.

 

[ZolaIII]

@voodooless at 2.5 W RMS and you aren't driving headphones so your 90 dB clearance is about 85.5 dB (@ 1 W RMS). How many speakers with higher sensitivity than that do you know in home - HiFi tire?
As they can improve design that all of this dosent mater and for cheap I don't see why they wouldn't.
It has HDMI ARC mix down 2.0 stereo PCM and even old Toslink (do to its fiber optic nature) is still better for same. It doesn't have any Dolby suport nor it will and you are still dependant how source device does mix down on its own.

 

[voodooless]

@voodooless at 2.5 W RMS and you aren't driving headphones so your 90 dB clearance is about 85.5 dB (@ 1 W RMS). How many speakers with higher sensitivity than that do you know in home - HiFi tire?

What? If noise is 90 dB down it’s way below room noise levels with almost any practical speaker sensitivity. Never mind that the auditory system is super insensitive in that area anyway.

It has HDMI ARC mix down 2.0 stereo PCM and even old Toslink (do to its fiber optic nature) is still better for same. It doesn't have any Dolby suport nor it will and you are still dependant how source device does mix down on its own.

So, what niche use cases has something that does “correct” Dolby downmix, and then needs something like the WiiM amp? Sound like hammering a nail with a screwdriver kind of thing…

In any case, Amp Ultra does support Dolby Digital and it will downmix to whatever speaker configuration you have. Is it perfect? I don’t know, but it sure as hell does a better job at it than this Yamaha here, because it has none of these features built in.

You’re really grasping at straws here…

 

[900SL]

I bought the Yamaha because I'm old school. Simple as that. Arguments about irrelevant differences are superfluous. I have a 45 kilo box turning up tomorrow (Aura 2 speakers) and a 15 kg box (Yamaha) in the afternoon.

 

[900SL]

Postscript: Set everything up yesterday. Very happy with the amp/speaker pairing. 'Effortless sound' is my best attempt at describing what I hear. Played a wide range of music, from jazz and trip- hop through to reggae and rock. Vocals are impressive, instruments sound 'real', dynamic range is the best I have heard. Nothing seems either exaggerated or set back. Bass is fine, not overblown, and very tight. Played some Adam Ben Ezra flamenco double bass and even the wife was blown away by the performance. Happy Panther

 

[Bernard23]

I have an A-S501 and an Ultra. The Ultra does all of the digital processing, the Yamaha does the power amp stuff. I like it because it works as well as any other power amp for the money but it looks like the dogs bollocks, well almost as I'm yearning for a 1100 or better a 2100. Nothing to do with audio quality, just the tactile experience and the reminiscent aesthetic of a long ago childhood. I'm actually thinking of swapping the 501 for an older 500 simply because of its greater aesthetic purity and that it has more metal contact points, plus I don't need a dac.

 

[catch22]

I have an A-S501 and an Ultra. The Ultra does all of the digital processing, the Yamaha does the power amp stuff. I like it because it works as well as any other power amp for the money but it looks like the dogs bollocks, well almost as I'm yearning for a 1100 or better a 2100. Nothing to do with audio quality, just the tactile experience and the reminiscent aesthetic of a long ago childhood. I'm actually thinking of swapping the 501 for an older 500 simply because of its greater aesthetic purity and that it has more metal contact points, plus I don't need a dac.

Yes!

And I agree x00 line over x01 for the purity.

Ultra with AS-1100