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XLR Y-splitters - please confirm ok for DAC output to 2 sets of studio monitors (multi-room)

Zeeb

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Please confirm this set-up is a good one (just for music entertainment) before I order more unnecessary cables:)

My DAC (Soncoz SGD1) has simultaneous XLR (balanced) and RCA (unbalanced) outputs...

If possible I would like to run:
  • DAC XLR output - to 2 sets of studio monitors through a passive Y-splitter (simultaneous multi-room)
  • DAC RCA output - to a subwoofer for one of the rooms
DAC (runs both the XLR and RCA at the same time)...
XLR output impedance: 200 Ohm (4V)
RCA output impedance: 100 Ohm (2V)

Studio monitor input impedances (XLR):
Genelec 8030C: 10 kOhm
Kali LP-6v2: ? kOhm (I guess 10 or 20 kOhm, have emailed Kali)

Subwoofer (SVS SB-1000 Pro) input impedance (RCA): 16 kOhm

+

I understand a passive Y-splitter should be fine for line level, because output impedance is low and input impedances are high.

I just want to confirm that this connection set-up will work well (DAC to 2 sets of speakers and subwoofer).

And a question... If the Kali monitors turn out to have an input impedance of 20 kOhm, and the Genelec monitors 10 kOhm - will their volumes be much different? (coming from a Y-split 200 Ohm DAC output)

Thank you.
 
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maverickronin

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That's usually just fine. I split the XLR outs on my RME ADI-2 DAC the same way.
 
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Zeeb

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Also, one of my cable runs will be 19m/60ft to the second room (balanced XLR).

Could this all result in any audible HF roll-off?

With 2 sets of active speakers plus the subwoofer - that's 3 high input impedances in parallel I guess
(unless the DAC's XLR and RCA are not simply in parallel, but I imagine they are).

I might as well order the Y-splitters and extra XLR cables and try it. I suppose it's likely to be fine?
 
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Zeeb

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I ordered the Y-splitters. One thing I read mentioned a rule of thumb of >10:1 input to output impedance to work well.

If I'm calculating it right, parallel splitting 3 inputs of (for example) 10 kOhm, 16 kOhm and 10 kOhm
= 3810 Ohm input impedance. If the output is eg 200 Ohm that is about a 20:1 ratio which is well over 10:1.

I used or misused the formula here: http://www.mathforengineers.com/AC-circuits-calculators/parallel-impedance-calculator.html
 
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EdTice

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I ordered the Y-splitters. One thing I read mentioned a rule of thumb of >10:1 input to output impedance to work well.

If I'm calculating it right, parallel splitting 3 inputs of (for example) 10 kOhm, 16 kOhm and 10 kOhm
= 3810 Ohm input impedance. If the output is eg 200 Ohm that is about a 20:1 ratio which is well over 10:1.

I used or misused the formula here: http://www.mathforengineers.com/AC-circuits-calculators/parallel-impedance-calculator.html
Your calculation is at least order-of magnitude correct. If all impedances were 10kOhm, you would get 3333 Ohm as a result. (It's very easy to calculate parallel impedance when all loads have the same impedance)
 

maverickronin

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(unless the DAC's XLR and RCA are not simply in parallel, but I imagine they are).

I would hope not, but who knows with this audiophile stuff...

Also, one of my cable runs will be 19m/60ft to the second room (balanced XLR).

Could this all result in any audible HF roll-off?

Not likely. Here's a calculator.

19m of high capacitance, but interference resistance start quad (150pF/m+) would still give you a 3dB point of well over 200kHz
 

f1shb0n3

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I just want to confirm that this connection set-up will work well (DAC to 2 sets of speakers and subwoofer).
Splitting XLRs to sub will “work”, but won’t allow you to do “proper” subwoofer integration. For that you’ll also need a high-pass filter on the LR and a delay on the sub. MiniDSP products are good for proper sub integration - Flex, SHD, etc.
 

EdTice

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Splitting XLRs to sub will “work”, but won’t allow you to do “proper” subwoofer integration. For that you’ll also need a high-pass filter on the LR and a delay on the sub. MiniDSP products are good for proper sub integration - Flex, SHD, etc.
Why not? Subwoofers were properly integrated well before we had digital bass management.

SVS (the manufacturer of the subwoofer in question here) disagrees with you. If you put the OPs speakers into their subwoofer matching tool you get this

Kali LP6v2

AV Receiver / Processor:​

Recommended Speaker/Subwoofer Crossover Frequency (Hz)80 Hz

Stereo Pre-Amplifier or Receiver:​

Recommended Low Pass Filter Frequency Setting (Hz)60 Hz
Recommended Low Pass Filter Slope (dB/octave)24 dB/octave


Genelec 8030

AV Receiver / Processor:
Recommended Speaker/Subwoofer Crossover Frequency (Hz)100 Hz

Stereo Pre-Amplifier or Receiver:​

Recommended Low Pass Filter Frequency Setting (Hz)58 Hz
Recommended Low Pass Filter Slope (dB/octave)Fixed (12) dB/octave

If you don't have digital bass management and no HPF for the mains, you just have to set the crossover appropriately and the integration will be just fine. This seems to come up in every newbie thread. Sure its *easier* to have digital bass management but it's not necessary. And it's not much harder to do integration without it since you no longer need to think. Just follow the manufacturer instructions.
 

f1shb0n3

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Why not? Subwoofers were properly integrated well before we had digital bass management.
Any of the many ways to integrate subs will work and be fine for most people.
If you want to get the most cohesive integration though, with smooth tonality, with custom crossover slopes, with ability to counter some room effects with delay adjustment, ability to integrate more than one sub, etc. - you need your MiniDSP or similar.
 

EdTice

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Any of the many ways to integrate subs will work and be fine for most people.
If you want to get the most cohesive integration though, with smooth tonality, with custom crossover slopes, with ability to counter some room effects with delay adjustment, ability to integrate more than one sub, etc. - you need your MiniDSP or similar.
Except that the SVS SB1000 Pro happens to have all of that built in. But other than that, yeah, you need MiniDSP or similar. Admittedly it's much *easier* to do it with a DAC that has subwoofer out and a room correction microphone. But the DSP on the SB1000 is pretty capable.
 
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Zeeb

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A Kali support person replied - the input impedance of the LP-6 (version 1, but they think the LP-6v2 is the same),

is 50 kOhm (25k per pin, standard Nelson Pass amp). I calculate that as around 8333 Ohm total input impedance for the 2 sets of speakers plus sub, so even better than I thought (approx 40:1 input to output).

Not likely. Here's a calculator.

19m of high capacitance, but interference resistance start quad (150pF/m+) would still give you a 3dB point of well over 200kHz
That's good, thanks. I want to see if I can do it cheaper than that so I ordered the Cordial 'Essentials' cable (not star quad). I hope interference noise isn't an issue...

Conductor area0.22 mm²
AWGAWG 24
Composition of conductor28 x 0.10 mm
Materialbare copper
Conductor resistance< 80 Ohm/km
Shieldingspiral shield (90% coverage)
Capacity cond.-cond. (pF/m)< 80 pF/m
categoryMicrophone
diameter5.9 ± 0.2 mm
Conductor isolationLDPE


a delay on the sub. MiniDSP products are good for proper sub integration - Flex, SHD, etc.
Yes, the delay factor concerns me a little, but I doubt it's worth a big upgrade to me. I read the Genelecs have <5ms DSP delay, and the SVS SB-1000 Pro has exactly 6ms DSP delay with features on or off. Even a 4ms difference in delay would prob be negligible anyway?

As to the crossover, I'm going to try using the Genelec's 'Bass Roll-Off' DIP switch as a high-pass filter as discussed here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ofer-without-an-external-crossover-dsp.30396/

If that and the SB-1000 Pro's PEQ, slope and phase controls don't satisfy me (I'll also get a measurement mike), or if I just get curious in 6 months or so, I might look at a Flex, but I'd lose balanced and that's getting expensive. Also adding another layer of DSP could be counter-productive I guess.

Why not? Subwoofers were properly integrated well before we had digital bass management.

SVS (the manufacturer of the subwoofer in question here) disagrees with you. If you put the OPs speakers into their subwoofer matching tool you get this

Kali LP6v2

AV Receiver / Processor:​

Recommended Speaker/Subwoofer Crossover Frequency (Hz)80 Hz

Stereo Pre-Amplifier or Receiver:​

Recommended Low Pass Filter Frequency Setting (Hz)60 Hz
Recommended Low Pass Filter Slope (dB/octave)24 dB/octave


Genelec 8030

AV Receiver / Processor:
Recommended Speaker/Subwoofer Crossover Frequency (Hz)100 Hz

Stereo Pre-Amplifier or Receiver:​

Recommended Low Pass Filter Frequency Setting (Hz)58 Hz
Recommended Low Pass Filter Slope (dB/octave)Fixed (12) dB/octave

If you don't have digital bass management and no HPF for the mains, you just have to set the crossover appropriately and the integration will be just fine. This seems to come up in every newbie thread. Sure its *easier* to have digital bass management but it's not necessary. And it's not much harder to do integration without it since you no longer need to think. Just follow the manufacturer instructions.
That matching tool result is for the Genelec 8030A/8030B. They don't list the 8030C - but applying the same rule they seem to have used (lowest freq response at +-2dB) it would be 54Hz, 12dB slope for the 8030C.

I'm surprised the Kali LP-6 recommendation is so high though: 60Hz low-pass. The lower freq response is listed at 47Hz ±3 dB for both v1 and v2 (and the detailed measurements for the v2 look more like 42Hz ±3 dB [https://www.kaliaudio.com/s/Kali-Au...Frequency-Response-Full-Measurements-Data.zip]). Could be to do with the faster 24db roll-off slope.
 

EdTice

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A Kali support person replied - the input impedance of the LP-6 (version 1, but they think the LP-6v2 is the same),

is 50 kOhm (25k per pin, standard Nelson Pass amp). I calculate that as around 8333 Ohm total input impedance for the 2 sets of speakers plus sub, so even better than I thought (approx 40:1 input to output).


That's good, thanks. I want to see if I can do it cheaper than that so I ordered the Cordial 'Essentials' cable (not star quad). I hope interference noise isn't an issue...

Conductor area0.22 mm²
AWGAWG 24
Composition of conductor28 x 0.10 mm
Materialbare copper
Conductor resistance< 80 Ohm/km
Shieldingspiral shield (90% coverage)
Capacity cond.-cond. (pF/m)< 80 pF/m
categoryMicrophone
diameter5.9 ± 0.2 mm
Conductor isolationLDPE



Yes, the delay factor concerns me a little, but I doubt it's worth a big upgrade to me. I read the Genelecs have <5ms DSP delay, and the SVS SB-1000 Pro has exactly 6ms DSP delay with features on or off. Even a 4ms difference in delay would prob be negligible anyway?

As to the crossover, I'm going to try using the Genelec's 'Bass Roll-Off' DIP switch as a high-pass filter as discussed here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ofer-without-an-external-crossover-dsp.30396/

If that and the SB-1000 Pro's PEQ, slope and phase controls don't satisfy me (I'll also get a measurement mike), or if I just get curious in 6 months or so, I might look at a Flex, but I'd lose balanced and that's getting expensive. Also adding another layer of DSP could be counter-productive I guess.


That matching tool result is for the Genelec 8030A/8030B. They don't list the 8030C - but applying the same rule they seem to have used (lowest freq response at +-2dB) it would be 54Hz, 12dB slope for the 8030C.

I'm surprised the Kali LP-6 recommendation is so high though: 60Hz low-pass. The lower freq response is listed at 47Hz ±3 dB for both v1 and v2 (and the detailed measurements for the v2 look more like 42Hz ±3 dB [https://www.kaliaudio.com/s/Kali-Au...Frequency-Response-Full-Measurements-Data.zip]). Could be to do with the faster 24db roll-off slope.
The 24dB roll off is because the Kalis are ported. Ported speakers roll off faster than sealed so you need the LPF to have a steeper slope for integration. There is great debate as for the "rule of thumb" where to set the crossover. Some argue in favor of setting at the -3dB point (which would be 47Hz) and others argue for a half octave higher (which would be 70Hz). I have no idea how SVS came up with 60Hz. There was another recent thread about this where somebody with a similar setup ended up selecting 55Hz. The adjusted based on listening not measurements.

4ms of delay is about the equivalent of 4 feet of distance (I think the actual number is 1.13 but 1ft/ms is easier to estimate in your head). The delay will be influenced more by the speakers position relative to listening than by the DSP delay. Not something to worry about.
 

f1shb0n3

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Yes, the delay factor concerns me a little, but I doubt it's worth a big upgrade to me. I read the Genelecs have <5ms DSP delay, and the SVS SB-1000 Pro has exactly 6ms DSP delay with features on or off. Even a 4ms difference in delay would prob be negligible anyway?
The delay of the sub is only partially related to the relative distance from mains - ideally you measure the delay precisely with REW first, but then you can experiment with moving it up and down a bit as means of countering interference with mains or among subs and getting higher SPL and smoother frequency response.
As to the crossover, I'm going to try using the Genelec's 'Bass Roll-Off' DIP switch as a high-pass filter as discussed here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ofer-without-an-external-crossover-dsp.30396/

If that and the SB-1000 Pro's PEQ, slope and phase controls don't satisfy me (I'll also get a measurement mike), or if I just get curious in 6 months or so, I might look at a Flex, but I'd lose balanced and that's getting expensive. Also adding another layer of DSP could be counter-productive I guess.
I like an incremental approach to upgrades too - saves a lot of money and you learn more by trying to get the best out of each upgrade step.
 

f1shb0n3

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in 6 months or so, I might look at a Flex, but I'd lose balanced and that's getting expensive. Also adding another layer of DSP could be counter-productive I guess.
In about 6 months when it's released - MiniDSP Flex Digital with your existing DAC + any cheap DAC for the subs, Schiit Modi 3 good enough. It will be worthwhile to consider, Dirac Live upgrade for it too.
 
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Zeeb

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Some argue in favor of setting at the -3dB point... and others argue for a half octave higher
I see, will experiment.

4ms of delay is about the equivalent of 4 feet of distance (I think the actual number is 1.13 but 1ft/ms is easier to estimate in your head). The delay will be influenced more by the speakers position relative to listening than by the DSP delay. Not something to worry about.
The delay of the sub is only partially related to the relative distance from mains - ideally you measure the delay precisely with REW first, but then you can experiment with moving it up and down a bit as means of countering interference with mains or among subs and getting higher SPL and smoother frequency response.
Would be nice to start as ideal as possible, to avoid some complications, but yes sounds like in practice the delay might be negligible in my situation and that phase adjustment might make it close enough.

In about 6 months when it's released - MiniDSP Flex Digital with your existing DAC + any cheap DAC for the subs, Schiit Modi 3 good enough. It will be worthwhile to consider, Dirac Live upgrade for it too.
What will the new digital Flex do? Will it allow a better connection with a DAC through the DAC's AES port to avoid an analogue stage?

I see the Flex has a balanced version - but could I theoretically use only 1 DAC (not 2 DACs) with an unbalanced Flex... to do 2 sets of main speakers (Y-split) plus the sub?
(I realise this would mean I couldn't do separate EQ on the second room's speakers.)
 

f1shb0n3

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What will the new digital Flex do? Will it allow a better connection with a DAC through the DAC's AES port to avoid an analogue stage?
Flex Digital will have 2 stereo digital outs (not sure which kind, probably coax, all is fine). This will allow you to use an external DAC with it. For contrast, the Flex Balanced does not have any digital outs so you have to use its built in DACs (which are excellent so no issue).
I see the Flex has a balanced version - but could I theoretically use only 1 DAC (not 2 DACs) with an unbalanced Flex... to do 2 sets of main speakers (Y-split) plus the sub?
(I realise this would mean I couldn't do separate EQ on the second room's speakers.)
Both balanced and unbalanced Flex have 2 stereo DACs, a total of 4 output channels you can separately PEQ, crossover and delay. Speakers go out of one stereo out, subs through the other, no Y splitters necessary.
With two sets of speakers though you won’t have outs for subs. Two systems need two processors unfortunately..
 
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Zeeb

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Flex Digital will have 2 stereo digital outs (not sure which kind, probably coax, all is fine). This will allow you to use an external DAC with it. For contrast, the Flex Balanced does not have any digital outs so you have to use its built in DACs (which are excellent so no issue).

Both balanced and unbalanced Flex have 2 stereo DACs, a total of 4 output channels you can separately PEQ, crossover and delay. Speakers go out of one stereo out, subs through the other, no Y splitters necessary.
With two sets of speakers though you won’t have outs for subs. Two systems need two processors unfortunately..
I see, the current Flex uses its own DACs only. Thanks, I'll keep this option in mind.
 
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