Speedskater
Major Contributor
The typical problem with RCA interconnects is when the equipment at the distant end is powered from a different AC circuit or the equipment has a cable TV or internet or computer connection.
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XLR or not? Haaaaalp! Ready to Buy and Cannot Decide!
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AnalogSteph
Major Contributor
Indeed, you're screwed with an unbalanced connection every time the ends insist on being at different potentials. Length tends to exacerbate the problem but is not a primary factor, as those who have heard their mouse movements on monitors or even a PC's front headphone output will be able to attest.
As a rule of thumb, use balanced connections between two devices that are both grounded. When one is floating (typical for the vinyl side, classic CD players and other hi-fi sources or hi-fi integrated amps / receivers etc.), unbalanced generally works fine. The art of operating a trouble-free system with unbalanced audio cabling is keeping the number of ground connections to exactly 1.
As a rule of thumb, use balanced connections between two devices that are both grounded. When one is floating (typical for the vinyl side, classic CD players and other hi-fi sources or hi-fi integrated amps / receivers etc.), unbalanced generally works fine. The art of operating a trouble-free system with unbalanced audio cabling is keeping the number of ground connections to exactly 1.
Digital Mastering System
Active Member
Balanced maybe better or maybe not better, depending on your exact configuration. For the case of line level short runs between equipment plugged into the same power strip - probably the same? One thing that is certain however, if you want to be as good as unbalanced, it will cost you more. [I used to work in proaudio and our system used hugely expensive (and huge sized) Jensen transformers between equipment. A stereo connection cost well over $500 in just transformers. But here's the thing - We once had a situation where there was a full 120VAC ground error between boxes and the transformer just strugged it off. No big deal. They just worked. This this the reason that pros use balanced and transformers; fewer problems.]
OP
56suited
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My interconnect lengths will be 1m or less, and I can definitely make it so everything plugs into the same power strip, if that is a necessity...I was planning on using two strips, but that sounds like I am inviting problems. Here are all of my items:
- Active studio monitor (L)
- Active studio monitor (R)
- WiiM Ultra
- Samsung Smart TV
- PlayStation 4
- Turntable
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Why are you not doing TT >> WiiM Ultra >[S/PDIF]> KH 120 II?
Using S/PDIF will eliminate all issues of the grounding and electrical interference between WiiM Ultra and the speakers. And moreover, it also eliminates a round of AD>DA since the KH 120 II will convert the analog input to digital for its internal processing and then convert back to analog to the speakers.
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This is not correct. If your output device is only RCA (unbalanced) and your input device is only XLR (balanced), you want to create an unbalanced to balanced cable using 2-wire STP (e.g., Mogami 2549). That will be a much better option that using a coax wire (which is what is used for most pre-made (RCA to XLR cables) or an RCA->XLR adapter at the input device side.
Why? Because you will gain much of the CMRR benefit by using a simple RCA -> XLR cable (using 2-wire STP) since the noise rejection occurs at the input device. And, you will gain nearly 100% of the CMRR if you add in a resistor on the RCA side so that the two wires are impedance matched (that said, in a setting such as short run, it is very unlikely to be worth the hassle of adding the extra resistor).
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If digital bits are getting dropped, something is broken or very poorly designed (and should not be purchased). I have zero issue of S/PDIF drops between my WiiM Pro and my DAC over S/PDIF; but I can't speak to the Ultra.
I don't agree. Once a signal is single ended, it cannot be made balanced by means of a cable.
Your suggestion that an RCA to XLR cable using a 2-wire cable is better than a standard RCA to RCA cable is equally false - otherwise we would all be buying RCA to RCA cables made up with 2-wire cable between. Most (though not all) RCA to RCA cables use single-wire as there's nothing to be gained by using 2-core.
Being a rookie isn't hard but rookies often make it hard by overthinking.
If XLR offered a tangible benefit for average consumers, it could be implemented in all gear. The fact that XLR is not implemented clearly demonstrates that it isn't necessary for the average end user. Where there is a benefit, the people at that level of understanding would understand why.
Just saying.
If XLR offered a tangible benefit for average consumers, it could be implemented in all gear. The fact that XLR is not implemented clearly demonstrates that it isn't necessary for the average end user. Where there is a benefit, the people at that level of understanding would understand why.
Just saying.
for me having XLR is ok if its a 'free' feature
eg. i bought an amp that has it has it standard, XLR dacs are as low as $150 so its not a big deal, short length XLR cables are cheap
i have a two dacs setup on my amp, one is xlr and one rca
there's no difference
i've never had interference on interconnects so its good xlr nullifies this but its not a problem anyway
eg. i bought an amp that has it has it standard, XLR dacs are as low as $150 so its not a big deal, short length XLR cables are cheap
i have a two dacs setup on my amp, one is xlr and one rca
there's no difference
i've never had interference on interconnects so its good xlr nullifies this but its not a problem anyway
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No worries on that. But could I suggest you do some reading on this topic that might change your mind?
The following presentation by Bill Whitlock has some fantastic material on the topic. Especially slides 41-46 regarding "what is balanced audio" and slides 64-67 regarding unbalanced to balanced. Note: he refers to 2 wire vs 3 wire which is included the shield in the count; but most others refer to 1 wire (coax) vs. 2 wire (STP) conductors without including the shield in the count.
The Myth and Mystery of Analog Signal Interfaces (AES, Detroit Section, 27 April 2021, Bill Whitlock)
Also see especially page 29 of the follow paper that Bill Whitlock wrote in 2005 on ground loops and noise rejection. Note: ignore all the reference to Jensen transformers since those are (a) no longer on the market and (b) overkills for nearly every home audio situation.
UNDERSTANDING, FINDING, & ELIMINATING GROUND LOOPS IN AUDIO & VIDEO SYSTEMS (By Whitlock; for Jensen, 2005 generic seminar)
My suggestion was RCA to XLR, which is a unbalanced output to a balanced input. That is not the same thing as an RCA to RCA, which is an unbalanced output to an unbalanced input.
You are absolutely correct that an RCA to RCA would only use a 1 wire coax cable. And further, for interconnects, there is absolutely no benefit for using larger cable diameters (e.g., lower AWG), so using a 2 wire STP ("bi-wiring") is useless on that front as well.
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Waxx
Major Contributor
I wold prefer that all is balanced, it's in theory better and less prone to all kind of disturbances. But the unbalanced RCA connection system does work in most hifi situations, and if it does not work it's because of or the equipent is bad made, or it's a mixed balanced/unbalanced envirroment without proper conversion (by a DI or other electronic device) of the signal, or it's in a pro audio envirroment where the magnetic fields are strong and all over the place and can disturb an unbalanced signal (studio or live audio often).
My systems at home are all unbalanced now, and it works. They are unbalanced because balanced hifi gear is rare. You will almost have to go to pro gear exlclusivly to get the full system balanced. In my case it would cost a lot more to do it balanced for little gain (less risk of bad signal).
But if i could redesign the whole system of standards for hifi audio and enforce it, all analog audio signal would be balanced. The cost of balancing a audio signal is minimal. The actual standards are old, and based on the tech of the early days of hifi gear. The name RCA refers to the Radio Corporation of America who introduced that plug in 1937 and it became a standard unbalanced plug for audio, replacing older types like the 1/4" phone jacket and the european DIN 41524 connector.
My systems at home are all unbalanced now, and it works. They are unbalanced because balanced hifi gear is rare. You will almost have to go to pro gear exlclusivly to get the full system balanced. In my case it would cost a lot more to do it balanced for little gain (less risk of bad signal).
But if i could redesign the whole system of standards for hifi audio and enforce it, all analog audio signal would be balanced. The cost of balancing a audio signal is minimal. The actual standards are old, and based on the tech of the early days of hifi gear. The name RCA refers to the Radio Corporation of America who introduced that plug in 1937 and it became a standard unbalanced plug for audio, replacing older types like the 1/4" phone jacket and the european DIN 41524 connector.
I agree with this. My current audio setup is very modest, just PC -> D10S -> L30 II -> Headphones. All the same ground, short interconnects. Even if I plug in sensitive IEMs and turn it to ear destroying gain (with nothing playing) it is dead silent.
The only serious ground loop I ever dealt with was on my dad’s system that used balanced interconnects between the preamp and power amp. It didn’t matter though. Because the ground loop occurred earlier and the noise was faithfully sent through the balanced cables. I think the noise was caused in the tv, which was hooked to cable via coax. It then sent the noise through hdmi arc to the preamp. We fixed it by running the coax cable through some kind of hokey power conditioner that my dad had on hand.
Funny thing was it was loud as hell but he couldn’t hear it due to age and genetic disposition to hearing loss. He’s got a badass system but he’s definitely not getting the most out of it. Such will likely be my fate, as my hearing is on the low side of normal for my age.
I would go with what is easiest. For example if you can, use RCA for everything. They are dirt cheap or free with equipment. Then if you have a problem you could mess with XLR connectors. 90% of the world operates just fine with RCA connections. Very inexpensive and almost always works. If it doesn't, then go for the few more dollars XLRs. 90% (my guess) of what you read on ASR is over thinking a non-existent problem. Have you setup your system at all yet? Enquiring minds want to know.......
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