XLR Interconnects: Is there a difference?

[watchnerd]

I read this is another forum. I've also read about it in several other places over the years. Thus I would tend to choose two conductor Mogami over the Star Quad:

"In listening tests we found Mogami Quad to be inferior to W2549, particularly as the length increases. This is an expected side effect and was a bit more dramatic than we expected to hear.

W2549 is more clear and better suited to audio unless you are solving known RFI issues. I would consider the lower cost a bonus."

Here, I'm going to write something on an internet forum for you (this one):

"In listening tests, live recordings, home mixing use, and conversion of 15 IPS vintage master tapes using our dual Revox PR-99 MKII to our RME ADI-2 Pro, we've found star quad XLR cables to be flawless and perfectly transparent."

Not trolling: my real world experience

So now you have two contradictory anecdotes!!!

Seriously, this isn't worth wasting neurons on.....

 

[Labjr]

The differences may be negligible for home use since cables tend to be very short compared to a studio or live sound environment.

 

[watchnerd]

The differences may be negligible for home use since cables tend to be very short compared to a studio or live sound environment.

My cables at home are as long as 50 feet.

 

[Labjr]

"In listening tests, live recordings, home mixing use, and conversion of 15 IPS vintage master tapes using our dual Revox PR-99 MKII to our RME ADI-2 Pro, we've found star quad XLR cables to be flawless and perfectly transparent."

In your listening tests, what else did you compare it to?

 

[DonH56]

The capacitance of star-quad cable is higher than two-wire (plus shield) but the resistance is lower. Ignoring cable resistance and using a typical 100-ohm source (preamp) impedance, a normal cable might be around 30 pF/ft (typical number) and quad cable 2x that or more. Let's triple it and use 90 pF/ft. And I'll make the assumption that the load (amplifier input or whatever) is much higher than the preamp's 100-ohm output impedance (typically 10x to 100x) to make the math easier (I'm lazy). Assume a 100' cable.

With all these assumptions, the bandwidth of the standard cable is about 530 kHz, and the star-quad about 177 kHz.

Clearly the listeners in that test can hear well above what normal humans can hear. Or something else is going on.

For home audio, balanced connections (XLR) are overkill most of the time unless you have a long run or severe EMI/RFI issues. (Marketing preys upon the rationale that "everyone" has some sort of RFI problem that needs fixing.) If you are going to use XLR, and have the budget, star-quad makes sense but is unlikely to be really needful except in pathological situations (house near a transmitter, or one in the house e.g. amateur radio operator, ru along power lines, etc.)

FWIWFM/you know the rest - Don

 

[pkane]

Can you share any links, please? I'm interested in use as line interconnects. I appreciate your sensible approach too, but remember there are others out there who think otherwise: https://www.musicdirect.com/cables/nordost-frey-2-interconnects-pr

Here are a few balanced interconnects tested with a complex music signal:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...es-make-a-difference-a-null-test-result.7738/

 

[watchnerd]

In your listening tests, what else did you compare it to?

I have XLR cables from Canare, Belden, Mogami, Stagemaster, Monoprice, Seismic Audio, Tisino, and Hosa.

 

[MediumRare]

I have XLR cables from Canare, Belden, Mogami, Stagemaster, Monoprice, Seismic Audio, Tisino, and Hosa.

Holy cannoli. And why so many? Have you seen any measurable differences?

 

[watchnerd]

Holy cannoli. And why so many? Have you seen any measurable differences?

Why so many?

Some came with gear. Bought at different points in time. Some are color-coded (other than black and white, I have red, yellow, blue, green, to help with 4 channel setups).

I have not seen any measurable differences -- they seem to generally null below -90 to - 100 dB.

So I stopped worrying about it and just buy whatever has good connectors*, in the color I want, at the best price for the length.

*I definitely have preferences for connectors. My favorite are Neutriks, my least favorite are whatever the hell Monoprice is using. Seismic connectors I like better than Monoprice, not quite as nice as Neutriks.

 

[CDMC]

So how do you interpret this demo of EMI rejection? Is it likely to create a problem more than solve one? And why do so many promote StarQuad?

Starquad is promoted because its design inherently rejects magnetic interference. Here is some good reading and a video demonstration:

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/ap...-the-importance-of-star-quad-microphone-cable

http://www.canare.com/UploadedDocum...phone Cable Perfrmance and Specifications.pdf

 

[MediumRare]

Starquad is promoted because its design inherently rejects magnetic interference. Here is some good reading and a video demonstration:

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/ap...-the-importance-of-star-quad-microphone-cable

http://www.canare.com/UploadedDocuments/A Technical Paper - Evaluating Microphone Cable Perfrmance and Specifications.pdf

The video purports to compare their StarQuad to Canare’s StarQuad. Start at 7:35.

 

[Labjr]

Starquad is promoted because its design inherently rejects magnetic interference. Here is some good reading and a video demonstration:

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/ap...-the-importance-of-star-quad-microphone-cable

http://www.canare.com/UploadedDocuments/A Technical Paper - Evaluating Microphone Cable Perfrmance and Specifications.pdf

Seems like every manufacturer shows test results favoring their product.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Seems like every manufacturer shows test results favoring their product.

Yup, you're right. Let us know if you ever find a manufacturer showing test results favoring the other guy's comparably priced product.

 

[MediumRare]

Why so many?

Some came with gear. Bought at different points in time. Some are color-coded (other than black and white, I have red, yellow, blue, green, to help with 4 channel setups).

I have not seen any measurable differences -- they seem to generally null below -90 to - 100 dB.

So I stopped worrying about it and just buy whatever has good connectors*, in the color I want, at the best price for the length.

*I definitely have preferences for connectors. My favorite are Neutriks, my least favorite are whatever the hell Monoprice is using. Seismic connectors I like better than Monoprice, not quite as nice as Neutriks.

Great summary! My cables arrived at 7:30 this morning and the Eminence connectors look excellent, especially since I don’t expect to touch or even see them again them for years and years.

 

[MediumRare]

Yup, you're right. Let us know if you ever find a manufacturer showing test results favoring the other guy's comparably priced product.

I don’t doubt it, but the video is interesting. I don’t know how to evaluate it.

 

[watchnerd]

Caveat to above comments:

Some of my balanced cables are XLR on one end, TRS on the other.

Oh noes, another variable to get neurotic about!

 

[CDMC]

Seems like every manufacturer shows test results favoring their product.

Except that Benchmark doesn't manufacture the cable (Canare) or the connectors. They do assemble them and sell them for a reasonable price on their website, but Benchmark specifically discusses why they have selected that cable over others based on TESTING. I use XLR's with Mogami wire, which doesn't have as good of shielding as the Carnare and hence rejects about 10-15db less noise. In my case it makes no difference, as my system has a SN ratio of probably about 90db (and my room about 50-55 db). In well designed studio equipment, they are pushing 120db+ sn ratios and it can make a difference.

I am in the minority here that I believe I can hear very minor differences in speaker cables. Can I tell you which is more accurate, nope. Can I tell you which I prefer, yes. Would I spend $500 on a pair, no (but have spent $200 for a 15foot biwire pair of cables and just built a set of speaker cables for my desktop that set me back a whopping $20). Am I convinced that the differences I am hearing are anything more than placebo, nope. I actually wish I had an easy way to do an ABX of speaker cables, so I could put to rest for myself whether I can really hear a difference or not (and likely find out I have been fooling myself).

With XLR cables in a balanced system (just because a system uses XLR cables does not mean it is actually balanced), any potential difference in cables should be absolutely minimized because of their inherent noise rejection. Ralph, the owner of Atma-Sphere, who is a regular poster on another forum has regularly stated that one of the advantages of balanced connections is that is removes any sound differences between cables when properly manufactured cables are used (and this is a manufacture that believes that cables can have a significant effect).

 

[GrimSurfer]

I don’t doubt it, but the video is interesting. I don’t know how to evaluate it.

I haven't watched the video so can't help you there. It's good practice to think "application, application, application" when reviewing product literature or videos.

Noise rejection in the MHz range might be great for video but irrelevant for audio. Also, you don't need shielding capable of attenuating massive electric or magnetic shielding unless you're setting up your rig next to a super collider.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Except that Benchmark doesn't manufacture the cable (Canare) or the connectors. They do assemble them and sell them for a reasonable price on their website, but Benchmark specifically discusses why they have selected that cable over others based on TESTING. I use XLR's with Mogami wire, which doesn't have as good of shielding as the Carnare and hence rejects about 10-15db less noise. In my case it makes no difference, as my system has a SN ratio of about 90db. In well designed studio equipment, they are pushing 120db+ sn ratios and it can make a difference.

I am in the minority here that I believe I can hear very minor differences in speaker cables. Can I tell you which is more accurate, nope. Can I tell you which I prefer, yes. Would I spend $500 on a pair, no (but have spent $200 for a 15foot biwire pair of cables). Am I convinced that the differences I am hearing are anything more than placebo, nope. I actually wish I had an easy way to do an ABX of speaker cables, so I could put to rest for myself whether I can really hear a difference or not (and likely find out I have been fooling myself).

With XLR cables in a balanced system (just because a system uses XLR cables does not mean it is actually balance), any potential difference in cables should be absolutely minimized because of their inherent noise rejection. Ralph, the owner of Atma-Sphere, who is a regular poster on another forum has regularly stated that one of the advantages of balanced connections is that is removes any sound differences between cables when properly manufactured cables are used (and this is a manufacture that believes that cables can have a significant effect).

The longer the cables, the more the attention to detail.

So if anyone talking about XLR interconnects of a few feet should think more about where the cables lie relative to things like power cords than whether the braiding is star quad or W4925 etc. If stage work is your thing, then spend all the time that's needed to find the best cable for a 100' run.

Application is important.

 

[jhaider]

I look for XLR connectors with rugged shells and contacts & solder cups made of good quality materials such as copper. With generic connectors, you don't know what you're getting.

It's worth noting that you don't have to solder XLR connections. Amphion and Neutrik used to sell "IDC" XLR connectors that had v-shaped knives to tap into the cable leads. I don't remember what Amphion's were called but the Neutrik like was called "ezCON." You don't need any tools to install them in theory, not even a wire stripper. In practice, Amphion works fine toeless but ezCON comes together much easier with a pliers wrench than finger pressure. Unfortunately both Amphion and Neutrik discontinued the IDC connectors. I asked Neutrik about it, and they told me they were great connectors but weren't purchased in sustainable volumes. They are probably better for hobbyists than pro users, and hobbyists don't buy a lot of connectors. Both might still be available from electronics surplus places, or as eBay sellers.

Neutrik has current production XLR connectors with crimp pins instead of solder cups available from Markertek and other sources.
https://www.neutrik.us/en-us/neutrik/products/xlr-connectors/xlr-cable-connectors/xx-crimp-series

Neutrik's crimp tooling is rebranded standard Rennsteig parts. However, they only work with shield twisted pair cable cable. The open barrel crimp pins are designed to capture both the insulation and the wire, and with two conductors that does not work.

The other thing about star quad is I don't know of any snakes made with star quad cores. A snake is what you want in a multichannel system, unless all the speakers are active with plate amps. All the wires stay together and the cores are individually labeled on their jackets. Even inside a media cabinet with a 7 channel system, it's easier to run an 8-core snake than 7 individual signal cables and a 12V trigger. If you hate soldering, as I do, you can even buy 1/4" TS or TRS connectors with terminal blocks on the other end for the trigger.