OP
- Thread Starter
- #21
Here’s what I ordered, can you tell anything from the photos/description that is a plus or minus? https://www.amazon.com/Audioblast-Balanced-Microphone-Connectors-Protected/dp/B07WGTLPMS
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XLR Interconnects: Is there a difference?
- Thread starter MediumRare
- Start date
Not sure what quality it is. But $25 shipped for a pair of cables, they likely use generic connectors. The wire says "Star Quad" but that only describes the cross-sectional view of the cable. Obviously meant to confuse buyers. Doesn't mean it's Canare. So not sure what it is or where it's made.
Myself, I would buy 4 Neutrik connectors and Mogami bulk cable and assemble them for about the same price or a little more.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #23
Well, I'll see tomorrow - delivery on a Sunday, can't complain about that. I could have chosen Neutrik or Amphenol connectors but for me I didn't see the value for spending more. BTW, there's no effort at confusion: They're marketing directly against Mogami and Canare: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCi4umHxGO5KGjhD-g3LKlQ/about
How come in this thread we are suggesting and subjectively recommending cables that likely are all the same without actually measuring and testing them? That's what this scientific site is all about isn't it? If anyone got into a discussion like this about dacs or slightly expensive gear, they'd be promptly reminded of objectivity over subjectivity... So?
Personally I bought a bunch of locally preferred pro audio (non expensive) cables from around the world and ....listened to them .....and no I didn't do an abx..... I still use the cables I feel best about which are an audio brand, not pro, though not uber expensive. I think they are best for me - in truth, I have no proof they are better than proaudio ones.
I would love to see some tests of proaudio cables here - surely a balanced cable should be really easy to test (for noise, distortion, bandwidth at least - maybe we don't need to focus on irrelevant rf properties) Amir (and not cost a fortune)? Perhaps they really would all measure the same. Maybe some high end audio cables would show nonlinearities that give them their flavour (if any)?
Just interesting - I think the difference in the discussion here being acceptable is that we are all happy to discuss one cable vs another that are sensibly priced and professional and most likely measure the same - without erring into audiophool territory.
Personally I bought a bunch of locally preferred pro audio (non expensive) cables from around the world and ....listened to them .....and no I didn't do an abx..... I still use the cables I feel best about which are an audio brand, not pro, though not uber expensive. I think they are best for me - in truth, I have no proof they are better than proaudio ones.
I would love to see some tests of proaudio cables here - surely a balanced cable should be really easy to test (for noise, distortion, bandwidth at least - maybe we don't need to focus on irrelevant rf properties) Amir (and not cost a fortune)? Perhaps they really would all measure the same. Maybe some high end audio cables would show nonlinearities that give them their flavour (if any)?
Just interesting - I think the difference in the discussion here being acceptable is that we are all happy to discuss one cable vs another that are sensibly priced and professional and most likely measure the same - without erring into audiophool territory.
GrimSurfer
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There are lots of tests on Canare, Mogami cables available on the internet. Given the very low price per foot (and I do mean low), a full cost benefit analysis isn't necessary.
As for the connectors, this is an area where durability rules. Broken or cracked connectors can fry an amp. Connectors that are well sized and have enough material are easier to solder and harder to break.
Those who have worked with these cables and connectors appreciate their features and performance. That's why their used by musicians and sound techs (who aren't exactly rolling in cash but know a good value when they see it).
I've tried to solder and use enough Radio Shack and 3rd world garbage paired with zip cord in my life. The day I switched to the kinds of connectors and wires mentioned here was the day my life became a lot easier and stress free.
As for the connectors, this is an area where durability rules. Broken or cracked connectors can fry an amp. Connectors that are well sized and have enough material are easier to solder and harder to break.
Those who have worked with these cables and connectors appreciate their features and performance. That's why their used by musicians and sound techs (who aren't exactly rolling in cash but know a good value when they see it).
I've tried to solder and use enough Radio Shack and 3rd world garbage paired with zip cord in my life. The day I switched to the kinds of connectors and wires mentioned here was the day my life became a lot easier and stress free.
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #26
Can you share any links, please? I'm interested in use as line interconnects. I appreciate your sensible approach too, but remember there are others out there who think otherwise: https://www.musicdirect.com/cables/nordost-frey-2-interconnects-pr
OP
- Thread Starter
- #27
Yes, thanks for reinforcing the message I ended my original post with: "especially data-driven advice would be most welcome".
GrimSurfer
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Can you share any links, please? I'm interested in use as line interconnects. I appreciate your sensible approach too, but remember there are others out there who think otherwise: https://www.musicdirect.com/cables/nordost-frey-2-interconnects-pr
You can google them as easily as I can. I'm not being a smart ass here but I researched this stuff a few years ago and didn't save any of the links... and even if I didn't, the life of a private link on the internet is less than the life of the socks in my drawer!
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Okay, do we really need to revisit very basic, iron clad, it doesn't matter situations? I get people want to convince themselves sometimes (I certainly have). Without data this is somewhat anecdotal.
Theoretically, there is nothing to be found in various XLR cables other than incompetent design like one with no twisting of the + and - signal lines.
Measurement wise, I could show nulling with only cable changes which go way down in the weeds along the noise floor.
I could provide measurements of distortion that doesn't change with cables. Same for FR except pathological cases (which we can predict from simple data).
I can even provide tribo-electric effect measurements of several cables (which do vary), but those are at such a low level they'll never matter at line level and almost never matter at microphone feed levels.
So we are down to good connectors, good shielding, and decently non-pathological cable construction.
So don't make a mountain out of a mole hill. Just buy any decent XLR cables and move on.
Or alternatively, what evidence or measurements would convince you that basic balanced XLR and TRS cabling is pretty close to a no brainer?
We're not debating audiophile cable here. Mogami cable is about $1 per foot. Canare is even less. Neutrik XLR plugs cost $3.
GrimSurfer is correct. There's plenty of information available on cable both brands. Many recording studios use Mogami because It's reasonably priced and neutral sounding. No fancy audiophile descriptors. Belden also makes some decent cable for interconnects which is reasonably priced.
I look for XLR connectors with rugged shells and contacts & solder cups made of good quality materials such as copper. With generic connectors, you don't know what you're getting.
I've used Neutrik Powercon AC connectors, Very high quality. For pro sound speaker connectors, I've been using Neutrik Speakon plugs in recent years. The plugs and jacks are about $4-5 or so. Good quality and quick connect/disconnect. There are a lot of knock-offs that are total garbage. So it's a good idea to buy Neutrik from an authorized reseller. Neutrik is reasonably priced so really no need to go cheaper.
Neutrik and other good brands are tested and certified. ISO-9001 etc. I doubt generic connectors are.
GrimSurfer is correct. There's plenty of information available on cable both brands. Many recording studios use Mogami because It's reasonably priced and neutral sounding. No fancy audiophile descriptors. Belden also makes some decent cable for interconnects which is reasonably priced.
I look for XLR connectors with rugged shells and contacts & solder cups made of good quality materials such as copper. With generic connectors, you don't know what you're getting.
I've used Neutrik Powercon AC connectors, Very high quality. For pro sound speaker connectors, I've been using Neutrik Speakon plugs in recent years. The plugs and jacks are about $4-5 or so. Good quality and quick connect/disconnect. There are a lot of knock-offs that are total garbage. So it's a good idea to buy Neutrik from an authorized reseller. Neutrik is reasonably priced so really no need to go cheaper.
Neutrik and other good brands are tested and certified. ISO-9001 etc. I doubt generic connectors are.
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An oldie by Bruno Putzeys.
https://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/cable-distortion-and-dielectric-biasing-debunked
The second page has links to measurements.
And here is his response several years later on a pro sound forum.
I think you're referring to a bunch of distortion measurements I've published once. What I was trying to show there is that the "micro-distortion" claim was falsifiable. It predicted distortion that a single-tone THD test would readily elicit. Failing that, the micro-distortion claim was falsified. Indeed it was unmeasurable, for the simple reason that it wasn't there.
Getting an analogue audio signal from one end of a cable to another is fairly simple:
1. Use balanced signalling. That is, use two signal conductors driven by equal impedances on the source end, and use a high-CMRR input with equal impedances on the inputs. Voltage symmetry is a nonissue at audio frequencies.
2. Make no attempt at impedance-matching the input and output. Make the drive impedance as low as you sensibly can. Make the input impedance as high as you sensibly can, particularly the common-mode impedance.
3. Use properly shielded cable. Tie the shield (pin 1) directly to the chassis (AES48)
Whenever a cable influences sound audibly, at least one of these three rules has been broken. Consumer audio gear, especially high-end stuff, tends to throw all three out of the window. I once got an email from someone who claimed my amplifiers were humming, while the only thing he had done was pop in a more expensive "interconnect". He was using a passive attenuator (10k impedance) and an unbalanced, UNSHIELDED cable by a joint called Nordost. Kimber makes similar monstrosities. Luckily, he accepted my explanation and returned the cable.
So, I'm not going to get drawn into endorsing particular makes of cable. Just stick to proper design practice and stay away from boutique cable brands. They'll misdesign the thing until they hear a difference and call that "better".
https://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/cable-distortion-and-dielectric-biasing-debunked
The second page has links to measurements.
And here is his response several years later on a pro sound forum.
I think you're referring to a bunch of distortion measurements I've published once. What I was trying to show there is that the "micro-distortion" claim was falsifiable. It predicted distortion that a single-tone THD test would readily elicit. Failing that, the micro-distortion claim was falsified. Indeed it was unmeasurable, for the simple reason that it wasn't there.
Getting an analogue audio signal from one end of a cable to another is fairly simple:
1. Use balanced signalling. That is, use two signal conductors driven by equal impedances on the source end, and use a high-CMRR input with equal impedances on the inputs. Voltage symmetry is a nonissue at audio frequencies.
2. Make no attempt at impedance-matching the input and output. Make the drive impedance as low as you sensibly can. Make the input impedance as high as you sensibly can, particularly the common-mode impedance.
3. Use properly shielded cable. Tie the shield (pin 1) directly to the chassis (AES48)
Whenever a cable influences sound audibly, at least one of these three rules has been broken. Consumer audio gear, especially high-end stuff, tends to throw all three out of the window. I once got an email from someone who claimed my amplifiers were humming, while the only thing he had done was pop in a more expensive "interconnect". He was using a passive attenuator (10k impedance) and an unbalanced, UNSHIELDED cable by a joint called Nordost. Kimber makes similar monstrosities. Luckily, he accepted my explanation and returned the cable.
So, I'm not going to get drawn into endorsing particular makes of cable. Just stick to proper design practice and stay away from boutique cable brands. They'll misdesign the thing until they hear a difference and call that "better".
waltzingbear
Member
What Bruno said,
I've installed thousands of xlr connectors and cabling, most of it Mogami, as stated earlier, because its pretty neutral and its easy to install. I consider it the starting point of good cable. Don't use much Canare because its too finiky to install and doesn't come in all the multipair put ups I want. For specialty installs I might use Gotham cable, that is the cable that used to come with Neumann microphones.
Neutrik all the way for me. Some people still like switchcraft, but it still has a screw and Neutrik requires no tools to put together (or take apart) and I think the strain relief works better. There are many Neutrik xlr's not one. They come in a variety of contact metals, silver, nickle and gold, priced accordingly. For severe conditions they make RFI hardened connectors of several varieties that block all rfi well, but they really are meant for transmitter sites and you don't usually need them. The cheap Chinese ones are crap and will fail in short order, its not worth it. Also their plating is usually pretty bad, I've seen "gold plated" connectors turn green in a couple years, oops.
Redco.com allows you to specify custom cables from what they carry, which is all the major suppliers. Markertek is good if they have the setup you want.
enjoy
Alan
I've installed thousands of xlr connectors and cabling, most of it Mogami, as stated earlier, because its pretty neutral and its easy to install. I consider it the starting point of good cable. Don't use much Canare because its too finiky to install and doesn't come in all the multipair put ups I want. For specialty installs I might use Gotham cable, that is the cable that used to come with Neumann microphones.
Neutrik all the way for me. Some people still like switchcraft, but it still has a screw and Neutrik requires no tools to put together (or take apart) and I think the strain relief works better. There are many Neutrik xlr's not one. They come in a variety of contact metals, silver, nickle and gold, priced accordingly. For severe conditions they make RFI hardened connectors of several varieties that block all rfi well, but they really are meant for transmitter sites and you don't usually need them. The cheap Chinese ones are crap and will fail in short order, its not worth it. Also their plating is usually pretty bad, I've seen "gold plated" connectors turn green in a couple years, oops.
Redco.com allows you to specify custom cables from what they carry, which is all the major suppliers. Markertek is good if they have the setup you want.
enjoy
Alan
OP
- Thread Starter
- #33
When you say "neutral sounding" that means to me you’ve heard a difference between cables. Is that correct?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #34
Great stuff, thanks. Makes me feel a little better about choosing a DAC with (hopefully) properly implemented balanced output. The DX7 Pro reports balanced output impedance of 200 ohms. Is that "low"? And how high is "high" input impedance? My amp has 22k ohms input impedance.
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #35
So how do you interpret this demo of EMI rejection? Is it likely to create a problem more than solve one? And why do so many promote StarQuad?
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I couldn't see the video but personally I would group EMI reduction separately from saying a cable has a particular "sound". The benefits of differential operation and star-quad cables have been known for many decades.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #37
I fixed the link.
GrimSurfer
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@MediumRare: You can get a reasonable sense of star quad wire in Wikipedia. It's not the IEEE Journal but lays out the basics well enough. It's just a more precise variation of twisted wire.
The big take away is that the consistency of twist (whether it is star quad or some other RFI/EMI solution) is at least as important as the wire for noise reduction. It's likely more important than shielding these days because there are few cables where the shielding is really well done.
As for metal conductor purity, copper is copper. The OFC stuff doesn't offer enough advantage over electrolytic tough pitch (aka standard) copper to justify its use for audio.
Connectors are really important in terms of how they take solder and tolerate assembly. As mentioned previously, copper is a delight to solder. The platings used to make cheap stuff look pretty but is hydrophilic to the point where you either have to overheat the connector to get the solder to stick or accept a cold weld.
As you do your own work using quality materials, you'll get to the point where you can plug things in with total confidence. It's a much different feeling than hoping something doesn't fry why you plug it in.
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I read this is another forum. I've also read about it in several other places over the years. Thus I would tend to choose two conductor Mogami over the Star Quad:
"In listening tests we found Mogami Quad to be inferior to W2549, particularly as the length increases. This is an expected side effect and was a bit more dramatic than we expected to hear.
W2549 is more clear and better suited to audio unless you are solving known RFI issues. I would consider the lower cost a bonus."
"In listening tests we found Mogami Quad to be inferior to W2549, particularly as the length increases. This is an expected side effect and was a bit more dramatic than we expected to hear.
W2549 is more clear and better suited to audio unless you are solving known RFI issues. I would consider the lower cost a bonus."
GrimSurfer
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I don't have any firm views one way or another. Once a person buys into a quality product, they are pretty much "there" in terms of performance and durability.
Canare, Mogami, etc. continue to make great cables. Some of the Belden and Blue Jean cables used to be good but it's been a while since I bought these brands.
Same thing WRT connectors. Neutrik and Amphenol are top notch. Perhaps not NASA or mil spec, but one doesn't need to meet or pay for such standards when connecting audio devices (unless, perhaps, you're wiring up a comsat or fitting out the acoustics suite of a SEAWOLF SSN).
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