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xDuoo TA-20 Tube Balanced Headphone Amplifier Review

hmscott

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But is any of it true or is it imaginary? Until the experimental setup and controls are detailed, this is a highly dubious comparison. This is a science forum, so the story telling so endemic in the audio world just doesn't cut it without evidence.
It is his comparison in the words he has to express that comparison, and that is a good start.

Unlike you and I he actually owns the TA-20 and P20 and has been listening to both for a long time, so his input - however he wishes to express it - is valuable to @Cirodx who actually asked for the comparison.

Maybe we should let @Cirodx ask @DeepSpace57 questions about the TA-20 / P20 before we chase both of them away? :)
 

DeepSpace57

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Thank you for the detailed comparison @DeepSpace57 - That was very helpful.

Do you use any equalization software/hardware with the TA-20 to bring the BASS / Treble up to P20 levels, or do you run without correction?

I concur that TA-20 excels in all of the areas you mentioned that the TA-20 excels in for you, and I try to enhance them by finding more "tubey" tubes to swap in to the TA-20.

What tubes have you found most enjoyable in the TA-20? Do any of those tubes help in the areas you mentioned above improve the TA-20 sound?

No EQ at all. Do not like it. Eq that you want can be done through tube rolling.

TA- 20 has two drawbacks, and need them to be done.

Caps rolling: I believe Ta-20 uses four of a solid 250V caps but it needs more. I do not wanna discuss it here

Opamp rolling: TA-20 has got a pair of 2132PA. Briefly, it lacks reality of treble. The metallic sound that makes amir unpleasant in the test comes from this opamp. The Lagendary (sparkos ) is needed on the board. Do not want to discuss this more here

So the amp has got potential to shine. But still good btw.
 

SIY

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It is his comparison in the words he has to express that comparison, and that is a good start.

Unlike you and I he actually owns the TA-20 and P20 and has been listening to both for a long time, so his input - however he wishes to express it - is valuable to @Cirodx who actually asked for the comparison.

Maybe we should let @Cirodx ask @DeepSpace57 questions about the TA-20 / P20 before we chase both of them away? :)

Maybe we should have actual evidence instead of fairy tales. This is a science forum. The sonic claims made here make zero sense, and should be disregarded unless and until there's evidence to back them up.

Science is neither for the gullible nor for hucksters marketing to the gullible.
 

DeepSpace57

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Maybe we should have actual evidence instead of fairy tales. This is a science forum. The sonic claims made here make zero sense, and should be disregarded unless and until there's evidence to back them up.

Science is neither for the gullible nor for hucksters marketing to the gullible.

So all top tier tube amps suck your money for nothing. Do you really think this? Have you ever heard any popular tube amp ? Do you call all-tube amp buyers as gullible guys paying more than a thousand bucks for worse than any sinad champ under 100 -150 usd?
 

hmscott

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No EQ at all. Do not like it. Eq that you want can be done through tube rolling.

TA- 20 has two drawbacks, and need them to be done.

Caps rolling: I believe Ta-20 uses four of a solid 250V caps but it needs more. I do not wanna discuss it here

Opamp rolling: TA-20 has got a pair of 2132PA. Briefly, it lacks reality of treble. The metallic sound that makes amir unpleasant in the test comes from this opamp. The Lagendary (sparkos ) is needed on the board. Do not want to discuss this more here

So the amp has got potential to shine. But still good btw.
That is the next stage for me as well, I'm thinking of getting another TA-20 to "operate on", but I'd like to discuss upgrades with Xduoo as they have the equipment and motivation to try different components and the tools to measure their effect on the TA-20 output. Leveraging their environment and interest in improving their own product is a good way to go about finding, testing, and introducing those improvements so everyone can benefit from them.

Amir has provided a great base of test results to use to improve the TA-20, results effected by, as you mentioned specifically, the TA-20 Opamps. As with using tubes outside the design envelope of the TA-20 design, it will be necessary to optimize these changes by engineering them into the TA-20 design, and going through the design cycle that includes testing for effect against the Base vs Desired outcome.

Often those measurable "improvements" don't actually improve the sound, or the customers listening experience. I'm sure Xduoo balanced cost vs. benefits while going through their original design cycle(s), but it has been more than a few years since the original introduction of the TA-20, so revisiting the design and components used is a good exercise that I hope Xduoo is interested in pursuing.

Among other things I'd like to see more power output as well as improving the components for better measurements that result in audible improvements.

I've PM'd you for discussing this out of the thread. I appreciate your sharing your research into what has worked so far for your and others. :)
 
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SIY

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So all top tier tube amps suck your money for nothing.

Most do, yes. I designed and built my first tube amp about 55 years ago, have done a few hundred since then, published several designs, and have half a dozen on hand. So I might modestly claim to have some experience in tubes.
 

hmscott

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Most do, yes. I designed and built my first tube amp about 55 years ago, have done a few hundred since then, published several designs, and have half a dozen on hand. So I might modestly claim to have some experience in tubes.
With all that experience, the best you can do here is to yell at the "kids" to "get off my lawn!"?

If you are unable to get a TA-20 of your own to then contribute using your skills here then you could be using what you do have to contribute elsewhere, instead of blocking people from sharing here.

To help people grow their skills using your hard won talents would be helpful, to berate them for not having your abilities and chase everyone away without sharing the tools and processes to better express themselves, is literally "lazy old man" syndrome.

That is why @DeepSpace57 felt he needed to repeat "I do not wanna discuss it here" because his natural reaction to being chased away, is to be chased away.

Noone wants to waste their hobby time putting up with mean people. :)
 

DeepSpace57

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Most do, yes. I designed and built my first tube amp about 55 years ago, have done a few hundred since then, published several designs, and have half a dozen on hand. So I might modestly claim to have some experience in tubes.

I deeply respect you... This might be evolution, and we are maybe at the beginning and will later say exactly what you said ...
 

SIY

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With all that experience, the best you can do here is to yell at the "kids" to "get off my lawn!"?

I want people to back up extraordinary claims with evidence. This isn't one of the make-believe forums. When people sling bullshit, it is called what it is.
 

hmscott

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I deeply respect you... This might be evolution, and we are maybe at the beginning and will later say exactly what you said ...
I want people to back up extraordinary claims with evidence. This isn't one of the make-believe forums. When people sling bullshit, it is called what it is.
SIY, @DeepSpace57 is trying to ask for your help and guidance, insulting him doesn't accomplish that. Perhaps you can show us how your experience can be put to good use by helping him express his comparison results as "evidenced" "provable" results you would accept, without derision?
 
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SIY

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@DeepSpace57 is trying to ask for your help and guidance, insulting him doesn't accomplish that. Perhaps you can show us how your experience can be put to good use by helping him express his comparison results as "evidenced" "provable" results you would accept, without derision?

My help and guidance is clear- don't screw around with 99% of tube stuff. It's a useless gimmick. If you just want it for the "coolness" factor, be honest with yourself about that. It won't be for the sonics.

If you're going to make sonic claims, the use of basic ears-only and level matching controls is absolutely essential. Without that, you're in the "alien abductions with anal probing" category.
 

Cirodx

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I have both for a long time!
Winners here!!
Sound stage wise: Ta-20 byfar
Blacker background: Ta-20
Separation: Ta-20
Bass: P20 by far
Treble: P20
Midrange: Tier
Layering: Ta-20
Dynamism/engagement : P20
Imaging: Ta-20
Driving power: Tier ( both are powerful enough for almost all, but ta -20 at 55/99 (0 = silent) equals like 25/60 of P20( 60 = silent)
Quality (material) : tier

Generally Prefer ta-20 unless I listen to heavy metal
many thanks for your opinion, do you think the TA 20 has a warmer sound than the p20 and is it able to better tame the mid-highs of the sundara?
Thank you.
 

hmscott

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My help and guidance is clear- don't screw around with 99% of tube stuff. It's a useless gimmick. If you just want it for the "coolness" factor, be honest with yourself about that. It won't be for the sonics.

If you're going to make sonic claims, the use of basic ears-only and level matching controls is absolutely essential. Without that, you're in the "alien abductions with anal probing" category.
The hyperbole isn't "scientific" and defocuses people from the important elements of what you said. I'll try to pull out the signal from the noise :)

Yes, I assume people do level matching, it has been my experience over a very long time - 5 decades - that people are smart enough to figure that out on their own, and it is rare to the extreme I've met someone that is working against themselves by not doing that. A couple of quick examples sets them straight, and that is all it really takes to move forward.

If that is all you had/have to offer, you could have simply replied to his posted results asking if his testing meets those criteria. I've never needed to say that myself, as I said I've rarely run across someone that didn't know that very early on in their appreciation for audio.

And, your comments about tube equipment really doesn't wash with what those that actually enjoy tube equipment experience daily.

We aren't trying to beat the measurements of SS tuned for graphs, we are tuning our hardware for listening pleasure.

The Topping A90 is a good example. I enjoy it immensely, but it doesn't satisfy me like a good tube amp like the TA-20, or another SS amp like the FiiO M15. Yet the A90 measures near the top of SS amps here on ASR.

@DeepSpace57 hit upon the next stage in my search for improving the TA-20 sound, replacing the OPAMP for better fidelity - measurements - and changing the Capacitance for better power availability, perhaps better Bass. Component changes to tune for using the E80CC or 12BH7 tubes.

Then we can feed our findings back to Xduoo - they probably already know all of this and simply optimized performance vs costs - and perhaps we can get a better TA-20 generation out of this work?

Or at least a couple reasonably affordable kits of optimizations to share with other TA-20 owners. :)
 
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DeepSpace57

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Everyon can believe in anything. But i have not seen any braveheart saying there is no difference in sonic between solid-state and tube amps. This is just ignorance, blindness, denialism. Just a quick example; battlehead crack vs thx 789.
 

DeepSpace57

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many thanks for your opinion, do you think the TA 20 has a warmer sound than the p20 and is it able to better tame the mid-highs of the sundara?
Thank you.

Ta-20 is very picky about tubes. With the right tubes, it is definitely warmer. TA-20 is laid back type of sound, which allows you to listen to the music through the longer session. Conversely, P20 slaps music on your face, completely fatiging after a while ( you have already had this amp, you know what i mean). I think having both is great, as they complement each other.
 

Cirodx

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Ta-20 is very picky about tubes. With the right tubes, it is definitely warmer. TA-20 is laid back type of sound, which allows you to listen to the music through the longer session. Conversely, P20 slaps music on your face, completely fatiging after a while ( you have already had this amp, you know what i mean). I think having both is great, as they complement each other.
thanks.
 

SIY

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The hyperbole isn't "scientific" and defocuses people from the important elements of what you said. I'll try to pull out the signal from the noise :)

Yes, I assume people do level matching, it has been my experience over a very long time - 5 decades - that people are smart enough to figure that out on their own, and it is rare to the extreme I've met someone that is working against themselves by not doing that. A couple of quick examples sets them straight, and that is all it really takes to move forward.

If that is all you had/have to offer, you could have simply replied to his posted results asking if his testing meets those criteria. I've never needed to say that myself, as I said I've rarely run across someone that didn't know that very early on in their appreciation for audio.

And, your comments about tube equipment really doesn't wash with what those that actually enjoy tube equipment experience daily.

We aren't trying to beat the measurements of SS tuned for graphs, we are tuning our hardware for listening pleasure.

The Topping A90 is a good example. I enjoy it immensely, but it doesn't satisfy me like a good tube amp like the TA-20, or another SS amp like the FiiO M15. Yet the A90 measures near the top of SS amps here on ASR.

@DeepSpace57 hit upon the next stage in my search for improving the TA-20 sound, replacing the OPAMP for better fidelity - measurements - and changing the Capacitance for better power availability, perhaps better Bass. Component changes to tune for using the E80CC or 12BH7 tubes.

Then we can feed our findings back to Xduoo - they probably already know all of this and simply optimized performance vs costs - and perhaps we can get a better TA-20 generation out of this work?

Or at least a couple reasonably affordable kits of optimizations to share with other TA-20 owners. :)
Making nonsense wordier and repeating it does not make it any less nonsense. This is evidence-free nonsense.
 

SIY

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Everyon can believe in anything. But i have not seen any braveheart saying there is no difference in sonic between solid-state and tube amps. This is just ignorance, blindness, denialism. Just a quick example; battlehead crack vs thx 789.

Just because the "tube sound" bullshit is old enough to have gray hair does not make it any less bullshit. There is nothing inherent to tubes that anyone has ever demonstrated to be any different sounding than a solid state device with equivalent source resistance (in the case of power amps) or other non-active-device dependent characteristic. Unless you think you're smarter than, say, the late Tim deParavicini, who stated and showed again and again that he could make identical sounding amps with tubes or solid state, and had evidence to back it up. Tim was a smart, accomplished, and fact-based engineer whom I would not call a "braveheart," but rather a clear-eyed realist.
 
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