Thanks that's very helpful. I will steer clear of the Astro A40. Looks like I will be putting up with the wires a bit longer.
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Xbox Series X support for external DACs
- Thread starter flyzipper
- Start date
I don't if Xbox works in the same way, but PS5 is a pain in the ass. They have a proprietary 3D audio format (like Dolby Atmos I assume), that can only be output digitally (via the PS5 USB), or through the controller aux port. If you try to route it through the TV, you can't get the 3D audio (or so I've read).
Here's the issue: the PS5 only supports UAC1, an ancient protocol that most DACs don't support anymore. So if you want to use your fancy DAC connected to the PS5 USB - you're SoL. If you want to use the PS5 controller, then you're stuck with whatever bargain basement DAC they put in it.
If I'm wrong about the quality of the PS5 controller DAC, the ability to route spatial audio through the TV (and out to your own DAC via optical), or, most importantly, if you know a way to get UAC2 DACs to work with the PS5 - I beg you, please correct me.
Here's the issue: the PS5 only supports UAC1, an ancient protocol that most DACs don't support anymore. So if you want to use your fancy DAC connected to the PS5 USB - you're SoL. If you want to use the PS5 controller, then you're stuck with whatever bargain basement DAC they put in it.
If I'm wrong about the quality of the PS5 controller DAC, the ability to route spatial audio through the TV (and out to your own DAC via optical), or, most importantly, if you know a way to get UAC2 DACs to work with the PS5 - I beg you, please correct me.
Hi
I had no idea there was this issue with the PS5, I had read about people using a DAC but it may depend on the model. Xbox just doesnt allow a third party DAC to be used with the USB, I believe it's a licensing issue.
You are right about the TV issue, if you use a HDMI to your TV you will be getting Dolby Atmos or DTS X for Home Theatres, this is not the same as the headphone version and will not pass through to stereo headphones.
You could use an audio extractor and then an optical lead from the extractor but as Carat said above there are issues with that too.
I couldn't say about the quality of the PS5 controller and I had the same concerns about my Xbox controller but I when I plugged my Hifiman Sundaras into my controller it was a huge improvement over my Arctis Steelseries One Wireless Xbox Edition. So although you may not be getting the best from your headphones plugged into the controller it will probably be a step up from a gaming headset.
It is very frustrating that decent audio has been an afterthought with these consoles.
The Nintendo Switch is the same, but I use a UAC1 USB to S/PDIF box and run it into my RME ADI-2 DAC.
I use this one. Nothing is really advertised by class 1 or 2, but the key is making sure the maximum bit rates are low enough. UAC1 tops at at two channels of 24/96 so anything more has to be UAC2 and anything equal or less is most likely UAC1.
There is one other USB DAC for the Xbox Series X (besides the Astro Mixamp) that I only just became aware of. It's a relatively recent release called the SteelSeries GameDAC Gen 2. It comes as a base station for Arctis Nova Pro headsets, with wired and wireless variations. Unfortunately the GameDAC Gen 2 cannot be purchased separately. You also need to make sure you're buying the Xbox version, as there are Xbox and non-Xbox versions of both.
The interesting thing about this product to me is that it has a Line-Out jack. Both the wired and wireless versions have this line level jack. The wired version is cheaper and seems to have a superior DAC, so I got that one. As mentioned above, it comes with a pair of headphones, but they're not very good. If I was going to use the headphone amp in the GameDAC I would use different headphones.
Anyway, back to the Line-Out: running the Line-Out into my audio interface, it proved to be pretty decent. There was a very slight channel mismatch on the level meters, but nothing audible. At first I was dismayed by a terrible noise floor, but it turned out to be some kind of earth loop that was addressed by disconnecting my audio interface from my PC. With that out of the way, the noise floor was acceptably low.
I obviously haven't had the unit for long enough to see whether it has the same kind of deal-breaking USB bugs as the Mixamp, but so far it seems pretty reliable.
But here's the (possible) kicker: Somehow, SteelSeries have managed to generate ~50ms latency in this device.
The 50ms might not be a deal breaker for everyone, but for me it is. I use both wired and wireless headphones and for the latter I use an AptX LL bluetooth transmitter. The combined latency of that + the gamedac becomes unacceptable.
I think it's absurd that a wired device targeted squarely at gaming can introduce so much latency.
So yes, the Steelseries GameDAC Gen 2 is a potential option for USB-to-analogue DAC for the Xbox Series X/S, but to get it you have to buy the whole Arctis Nova Pro package, and be aware of the abnormally high latency for a wired DAC.
The interesting thing about this product to me is that it has a Line-Out jack. Both the wired and wireless versions have this line level jack. The wired version is cheaper and seems to have a superior DAC, so I got that one. As mentioned above, it comes with a pair of headphones, but they're not very good. If I was going to use the headphone amp in the GameDAC I would use different headphones.
Anyway, back to the Line-Out: running the Line-Out into my audio interface, it proved to be pretty decent. There was a very slight channel mismatch on the level meters, but nothing audible. At first I was dismayed by a terrible noise floor, but it turned out to be some kind of earth loop that was addressed by disconnecting my audio interface from my PC. With that out of the way, the noise floor was acceptably low.
I obviously haven't had the unit for long enough to see whether it has the same kind of deal-breaking USB bugs as the Mixamp, but so far it seems pretty reliable.
But here's the (possible) kicker: Somehow, SteelSeries have managed to generate ~50ms latency in this device.
The 50ms might not be a deal breaker for everyone, but for me it is. I use both wired and wireless headphones and for the latter I use an AptX LL bluetooth transmitter. The combined latency of that + the gamedac becomes unacceptable.
I think it's absurd that a wired device targeted squarely at gaming can introduce so much latency.
So yes, the Steelseries GameDAC Gen 2 is a potential option for USB-to-analogue DAC for the Xbox Series X/S, but to get it you have to buy the whole Arctis Nova Pro package, and be aware of the abnormally high latency for a wired DAC.
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Thanks that is interesting but I'm afraid the latency is a bit much for me. I did find it on sale without headphones on Arctis' site https://steelseries.com/gaming-accessories/gamedac.
That’s the older Gen 1 GameDAC. Hopefully the Gen 2 will eventually be sold as a standalone unit too, but currently you cannot purchase it on its own.
nomadwrangler
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I stumbled on this thread trying to understand if that Gen 2 Gamedac would work. I had hoped I could use the line-out and then still input microphone into it to allow both using my audio gear and still participate in party chat.
With your testing did you use a microphne at all? If yes did you have to use it via the headphone jack or does the line-in offer any options here? It is unclear what all you can do with the inputs/outputs from the product manual/pages.
The latency is concerning/bizarre and has been observed by others as well. Apparently it is only introduced via usb and not if using direct analog source (according to Rtings.com). I am not sure what to make of it.
The latency issue is actually far worse than I had initially thought. I tested the latency with the PC connection, assuming that the PC and Xbox latencies would be comparable, but on Xbox it’s closer to 100ms.
I opened a support case with SteelSeries, who seemed pretty receptive and said they would look into it, but it’s dragging on and I’m starting to lose hope that they’ll actually do anything.
Regarding rtings claim that there is no latency using an analog source, they simply mean that if you connect the included headset to a source directly (thus bypassing the gamedac) there is no added latency. This is kind of obvious, but the way they word it is confusing. Anything connected to the analog line input on the gamedac is still subject to its latency.
It’s not clear to me exactly what you’re asking regarding the mic. Do you want to add a standalone TRRS mic (like the rode smartlav+) to the headset output on the gamedac but use the line output as the only output? That will probably work but you will lose mic monitoring.
By the way, I have noticed additional problems with the gamedac, such as an issue with the capacitive touch button malfunctioning and causing random beeping noises. I have observed this on two separate units, and I’m not the only one. Furthermore, the build quality of the gamedac is sub par given the high price. I strongly recommend staying away from this product.
nomadwrangler
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Well shoot; I really appreciate the additonal insight though!
I guess my hopes of some Dac-ish setup for the console will just wait. There is little information regarding using this thing in the wild, but the little there is strongly urges caution. I wasn't looking forward to buying it for its price bundled with a headphones anyways.
Regarding microphone - That setup you mentioned (TRRS for Mic only in the dedicated headset plug, and lin-out for amp to heapdhones) was what I was hoping for, but was curious if there were other options that could be used with the line-in etc.
I am just perplexed that the Xbox creates these kind of issues frankly.
andrewjohn007
Active Member
My son is an avid xBox player and was wanting to connect some external speakers. For Christmas I hooked him up with a pair of JBL 308P MkII powered monitors, an SMSL D-6 DAC and an OREI 8K HDMI 2.1 Switcher ($40 at the Bezos Corner Store) which has an optical out. The reason for including the OREI was that his gaming monitor does not have an optical out. It seems that the functionality of this proposed system will hinge upon the $40 OREI unit, so I am proceeding with cautious optimism. My son understood the issues at hand and that we would need to build the system slowly after researching the available options - that's why we are three weeks after Christmas, finally about to test it all out.
It is incredulous that xBox would push the envelope in developing a state of the art console, in terms of video quality, while completely shitting all over the audio aspect. Furthermore, xBox seems to have missed a genuine opportunity for a decent money grab in subsequently offering an xBox branded ancillary unit (with a massive price tag) that could offer a simple digital output.
For those of you in a similar situation (wanting external speakers and not having an optical out on your gaming monitor), I'll report back and let you know if this $40 OREI is worthy in the realm of high resolution, high FPS, COD style multi-player console gaming.
It is incredulous that xBox would push the envelope in developing a state of the art console, in terms of video quality, while completely shitting all over the audio aspect. Furthermore, xBox seems to have missed a genuine opportunity for a decent money grab in subsequently offering an xBox branded ancillary unit (with a massive price tag) that could offer a simple digital output.
For those of you in a similar situation (wanting external speakers and not having an optical out on your gaming monitor), I'll report back and let you know if this $40 OREI is worthy in the realm of high resolution, high FPS, COD style multi-player console gaming.
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I think the move away from digital outputs is a push towards an all in one system where you don't need anything but the 3.5mm out on your controller also I believe those of us who want really good quality audio are in the minority of Xbox Consumers, amongst the people I regularly game with I'm the only one with a paid of audiophile headphones, everyone else is using something from Steelseries, Razer or Turtle Beach.
andrewjohn007
Active Member
Well the preliminary run using the $40 OREI 8K HDMI 2.1 Switcher was a success. By preliminary, I mean that it has successfully peeled off the audio from the HDMI and fed it to the DAC via the optical input. Video looks good, audio sounds good. My kid is super pleased. He doesn't notice any latency, but he's only about 30 minutes into game play. Here is the link to the unit:
Unfortunately, I am unable to measure latency as that sort of technical know-how is beyond my current skill level. Maybe someone out there can pick up where I have left off and give us some measurements and hard data?
Unfortunately, I am unable to measure latency as that sort of technical know-how is beyond my current skill level. Maybe someone out there can pick up where I have left off and give us some measurements and hard data?
nomadwrangler
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We certainly are.
I basically just want to use my audio gear for games and given the amount of wonderful music, audio design, and overall efforts to immerse us in them it is a weird limiting factor. The majority of people want features and comfort more than anything else and after reluctantly buying a wireless headset (Penrose) I can understand that appeal.
I can live with using optical from the TV or a an HDMI audio extractor, but the insult and annoyance really comes from trying to use chat in addition to that.
Thanks for that link!
Does your son using Xbox party chat as well or only using this setup for listening?
andrewjohn007
Active Member
He uses the xBox party chat frequently. He has a wired Razer headset that is fed by his xBox wireless controller via the 3.5 audio out. When the headset is plugged into the controller, he hears the party chat exclusively through the headset, whereas the game audio plays via the external monitors (fed by the DAC, which is fed by the audio extractor). When the headset is unplugged, both party chat and game audio plays through the external monitors. He says that's optimal for his usage.
Game chat on the other hand, plays through the monitors along with game audio.
Game chat on the other hand, plays through the monitors along with game audio.
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andrewjohn007
Active Member
He says that it's opened up the audio soundstage to magnificent proportions and that multiple veils have been lifted. Bass is punchy, tight and deep, whereas trebles are clear, yet lack any suggestion of brightness. We ordered some cable lifters and an AC power cleanser to really bring out the full potential of the system. hahahahaha
How do you know the latency issue is there?
I have this DAC and I cannot detect any latency in audio relative to video. I also chat throughout my games and there is no noticeable lag or delay.
If you are referring to the Reddit review notice how he measures latency - it’s flawed because he takes into account the DAC in the monitor. I don’t know about you, but Dell monitors are not known for their analog DACs!
”I decided to compare the GameDAC Gen2 to the analog line out on my Dell S2722QC monitor”
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That’s my review.
1. The latency is noticeable in practice. If it hadn’t been, I would never have bothered testing it on Xbox and would have assumed the latency was the same as on PC. I use M&K a lot. With rapid, mouse-driven camera pans the GameDAC's latency is obvious. It has a disorienting effect, making it hard to pinpoint the direction of sounds when they occur during a pan. The issue is less pronounced if using a controller, because panning with a controller is painfully slow. However, you can still see a slight delay in lip sync, a delay between gun report and muzzle flash, etc.
Some people are less sensitive to audio latency than others. If you don’t notice it then great, count yourself lucky and enjoy the DAC. But the latency is there whether you notice it or not, and it’s in excess of what is considered acceptable AV latency by entities like the ITU.
2. The Dell monitor test shows the GameDAC being 89ms more than the monitor’s DAC. Removing the monitor from the equation wasn't going to make the GameDAC look any better. Yes, the monitor's DAC isn't great, but that only makes it more embarrassing for the GameDAC that it's 89ms slower than a POS integrated DAC in a Dell monitor! But you can ignore the monitor test and read the next paragraph where you will see that I conducted a second latency test using an Xbox One X’s optical port, which eliminated the monitor and got a more precise reading of 104ms.
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It seems that there is a third Series-compatible wired "DAC" out there in addition to the GameDAC Gen 2 and the MixAmp. The "Turtle Beach Stream Mic" is apparently compatible with the Series consoles. While DAC is not its primary function, it has a headphone jack on it so it can still play the role of USB-to-analog DAC.
I have not tried it myself, as I can find no cheap examples available in my region. The problem is that it's a discontinued product, only available on the second-hand market.
People in the Reddit thread hotlinked above were claiming that Turtle Beach lists this device as officially compatible with the Series consoles on their website, but I cannot find any mention of that myself. However, I have no reason to doubt the Reddit OP that it works. What I do doubt is the quality of the DAC. I can't imagine it's particularly good, being a side feature on what is primarily a mic. Still, I'm very curious about this product and it might be worth a try if you can get it for cheap. I wonder what the latency on it is like.
I have not tried it myself, as I can find no cheap examples available in my region. The problem is that it's a discontinued product, only available on the second-hand market.
People in the Reddit thread hotlinked above were claiming that Turtle Beach lists this device as officially compatible with the Series consoles on their website, but I cannot find any mention of that myself. However, I have no reason to doubt the Reddit OP that it works. What I do doubt is the quality of the DAC. I can't imagine it's particularly good, being a side feature on what is primarily a mic. Still, I'm very curious about this product and it might be worth a try if you can get it for cheap. I wonder what the latency on it is like.
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