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Would Larger Subs Be Beneficial If Current Subs Are Already Not Maxed Out?

Pdxwayne

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I disagree with the previous poster. You lack slam (bass is tubby/muddy) is because of the difference between the 20-80 hz response and the 100-200 hz response. Especially that null at 125 hz and peak at 65 hz, but even otherwise. Other than pulling you main speakers out from the wall, the other thing you can do is turn the volume on the subs down by 7 dB. The problem you have is the 'attack' on most instruments isn't <100hz, so adding more sub-bass isn't going to add any of that it will just drown it out more.

Can you run a sweep with the subs turned down by 7 dB and report back how that sounds?

Most 'bass boost' settings will boost everything below 200-250 hz. Boosting only below the subwoofer crossover frequency is why the bass sounds uneven. A lot of bass comes from the mains and not the subs and those are being drown out because the sub is being run so hot.

Edit: annotated chart
View attachment 180215
A while back, in my 5000+ cubic ft living room that is opens to rest of home, I have tried subs with total of three 15" woofers, with 7 speakers, crossed at 120hz. Definitely I got that slam, both for movie and music. That really depends on the room, crossover, etc.
 
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TurtlePaul

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A while back, in my 5000+ cubic ft living room that is opens to rest of home, I have tried subs with total of three 15" woofers, with 7 speakers, crossed at 120hz. Definitely I got that slam, both for movie and music. That really depends on the room, crossover, etc.
If he can increase the crossover to 120 hz, that may help fill a dip in his response.
 

sarumbear

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sarumbear

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I disagree with the previous poster. You lack slam (bass is tubby/muddy) is because of the difference between the 20-80 hz response and the 100-200 hz response. Especially that null at 125 hz and peak at 65 hz, but even otherwise.
How can a subwoofer that is must likely cut off at around 80Hz will affect 100-200Hz and a peak at 125Hz where the subwoofer is expected to be at around -15dB?
 

TurtlePaul

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How can a subwoofer that is must likely cut off at around 80Hz will affect 100-200Hz and a peak at 125Hz where the subwoofer is expected to be at around -15dB?
The -15 dB is the difference between 65 hz and 125 hz. There are three components to this, in order of impact:

1. His subs aren't doing anything at 125 hz but are very loud below 80 hz. There is a mismatch across the board between his subs and mains with his subs just too loud. This is about 7 dB and is a shelf between the total bass response and the midrange/treble response.

2. He has a room mode at 65 hz. He can address this with the parametric EQ on his subs. By eyeball, I would try 65 Hz, -4 dB, Q=2.5. This is about a 4 dB hump but is fairly wide Q between 55 and 75 hz.

3. He has a null at 125 hz. This is probably a front wall quarter-wave cancelation from his mains. If he could increase the crossover frequency to 120 hz it may reduce this. This is a 4 dB dip but is fairly narrow Q.
 
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Keith Conroy

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I should probably give more information if I want quality answers! I'm glad to see the battleship guy here as I love his responses. Like most people here I'm slowly upgrading my system. My original system was an Onkyo receiver, Pioneer fs 52 (Andrew Jones) towers, two Polk psw 10 subs, and some generic surrounds in the ceiling. After getting more into audio I found some used Focal 926's on OfferUp not far from where I lived. The nice guy selling them let me try them at his home and even delivered them to my place. Buying used allowed me to acquire speakers I probably wouldn't or couldn't have afforded otherwise. When I first listened to them on my system it just blew my mind. The experience was amazing. I was smiling ear to ear and blasting the the Star Wars theme song, lol! Next up I wanted to upgrade my subs.

I just bought a pair of SVS SB 3000's. I have a 3,700 ft cubed room. It opens out the back to the kitchen, but the kitchen opens out the back to the dining room ect. so it's a pretty open house plan. My living room is tile flooring with a decent amount of glass/windows, but there are also rugs, couches, bookshelves, etc. to help. I went with the SVS's because I wanted the tightness and integration of a sealed sub. I liked the idea of having the controls on my phone, because turning dials on the back of the sub for every change is a pain, and their small size, good looks, and 45 day free return shipping return policy. Unfortunately, unlike the Focal speakers they have not blown me away. They are definitely better than the Polks (they are 10x the price so I would hope so), but the effect hasn't been mind shattering. I feel like they lack punch and slam, which I know is subjective. Maybe I need to get ported subs? Maybe, I should have gone with the HSU ULS MK 15's, which were the other subs I was considering. They have slightly larger drivers and can hit a little deeper. The PEQ on the SVS subs has allowed me to smooth out their curve a little, but I'm not sure how much a difference it makes in my real world listening. I guess I'm just surprised that going from $200 worth of subs to $2,200 worth of subs didn't make more of a difference and I'm trying to see where I went wrong. Maybe I'm not being honest with myself. Maybe I'm more of a bass head or looking for more of a home theater experience than I care to admit. When I really want to listen to music I generally go to my "reading chair" where I have a JDS Labs amp, dac, and Hi Fi Man Sundaras. Sorry if this is a long post, borning, or has been answered elsewhere. If this interests you or you have advice please feel free to chime in. As I currently see it my options are 1. Keep the SB 3000s, 2. Send them back for the HSU's, or 3. send them back and look into ported, bigger subs in the same 2k'ish price range.

Here is an RTA sweep of my listening position:
index.php
Lots I could suggest technically, but I will 1st on comment on your post. What I read you saying is I have spent 10X money and I'm not at all 100% happy?? I don't know how many days you have before you can't send the SVS sub woofers back?? So as I understand things you do own 2 sub woofers. So depending on placement your loading the room well as far as peaks and dips?? Your have purchased some high quality sub woofers that are built well and go quite low. You also have a fair amount of power & cone area. Your are correct generally depending on the system Q a sealed box has somewhat of a different sonic signature then ported. I personally also like sealed, but that's a taste thing. Ported boxes are also more efficient. Yes there are better & more expensive sub woofers but the SVS are quality pieces. If your not 100% happy and you have done all you can on set up and EQ............then think about sending them back?? Be prepared to invest some time in listening at stereo stores, friend etc. You have to ask yourself some hard questions. What am I missing with the SVS that makes me unhappy? Do I need more SPL? Do I want to go lower in Frequency? Or do I want more in both SPL & lower Frequency? Am I unhappy with the SVS sonic signature related to my music? Its not always easy but you have to define for yourself what the SVS units are not giving you? Once you decide what's missing you can focus on it related to your research and a next purchase? Is the sub woofers size an issue? With what you have to spend you have some options. Again if your clearly unhappy at some level now, will you become happy over time? Hmm...........that's not my experience? Are you expecting too much? Again I think you have to define what you think is missing?? Then ask can I afford to buy what I need?
 
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luft262

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OK. Here are some graphs after lots of playing with settings. I start with the original graphs (before making changes) and then I posted the results from after making changes. I apologize if I am boring anyone with too manny graphs. So far the changes I have made to improve my curve are as follows:

Decreased Sub Distance In AVR From 16.5 To 13.5 Feet
Increased Crossover From 80Hz To 120Hz
Adjusted Graphic EQ In AVR
Adjusted/Used The 3 PEQs Per Sub In SVS App
Decreased Sub Level From -13 to -18dB

I also played with things like phase and polarity, but was not able to improve on the original settings.

Here begins the graphs with the original settings:

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Here begins the graphs with updated settings:



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Here are a couple of overlays
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Here is All SPL without Phase

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Here are results zoomed in from 10 to 200 Hz

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Perhaps that data gives some insight to others regarding my situation and how to best go about improving sound quality in my room.

My takeaway from this experience is that I think I have to come to terms with the fact that I have a multipurpose room that will never be an anechoic chamber or even a home theater room. I will always have to make choices/sacrifices. I think Adam is right that I would probably be very happy with some very large subs! However, I don't think I could justify spending more than about $1,500 per sub and I currently don't have a ton of space for large ported subs. I already have to run the subs I currently have at -18dB just to blend them properly with my speakers. Over time I'll get a better AVR, but I don't know when that will be or what effect it will have. In regards to the HSU subs they are only slightly bigger and would hit a little lower do to their greater displacement, but I would lose some features, especially the PEQ filters, and it doesn't look like even a new AVR will give me access to PEQ. I could get a miniDSP, but Amir showed that it adds too much distortion. I could go for the upgraded DSP with less distortion, but those cost about $1,000. At my current price point there probably aren't any subs that are going to give me less distortion above 40Hz or DSP controls. There are some that could dig deeper, but that's about it. The HSU's specifically go about 6 dB higher under 40Hz and use 15" drivers with a 600 watt amp. The SVSs I'm currently using have 13" drivers, but audioholics says they are more like 13.875" and are unsure why SVS rounded down when most manufacturers would have rounded up. I think it's because they wanted to differentiate within there own product line to give consumers a reason to purchase the 4000 series, but that's just me. It uses aluminum rather than paper cone drivers like the HSU so there are pluses and minuses between the two and I doubt I could ever find a clear winner between the two.

In a perfect world I would get bigger and better subs, but I cold also do a bunch of other stuff like room treatments, better AVR, better TV, etc. I think overall these subs are about as good as I'm going to get given my limitations.

Thank you all for your help and feel free to chime in with suggestions. I appreciate and read all of them.
 

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Astrozombie

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I've always been curious because you see some monsters out there, heck I just saw a youtube thumbnail for a guy installing Dual 18s!!!! In his attic!!! I have fairly entry level ones in a medium room and am pretty happy even though I have yet to EQ with a Mini-DSP.
I get the sense that the bass lingers though, i'm thinking room treatment is what is needed not bigger subs in my case. Though the bass traps are giant ugly things that aren't practical for most living rooms. We just have to live with it.
In your case TC I would probably try to tweak and maybe add a 3rd or 4th SB3K in the future.

Another thing, they start using so much power though I wonder if you would need to call an electrician at some point just to get them working? I don't think my place even has a single 20Amp circuit.
 

TurtlePaul

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Thank you for sharing your experience with us. You laid out the objective data in some great charts. Subjectively how do you like the sound? Have you played any favorite tracks?
 
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luft262

luft262

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Thank you for sharing your experience with us. You laid out the objective data in some great charts. Subjectively how do you like the sound? Have you played any favorite tracks?
Well, IMHO it sounds great! It's difficult to put my finger on it, or to get a real side-by-side comparison, because it takes too much time to switch all the settings back or swap out the new and old subs, but the overall sound after everything is more balanced. My wife says it sounds less muddy or boomy. She was an instant fan of the new subs. But you have to remember the SB 3000's have a super high WAF. They are small and have a piano black finish so that might be influencing her judgement, but she claims they sound way better. I also think they sound better, especially with music. For movies I've noticed I can hear voices and other details better. It could be in my head, but smoothing out my house curve seems to help with detail retrieval and improves overall tonality. It's nice to be able to make PEQ and other adjustments without adding the complexity and possible distortion of a separate DSP device, such as the miniDSP. Of note, Armin did not recommend the miniDSP and to get a DSP that meets his recommendation standards is over $1k if buying new, so having DSP on the sub itself has direct monetary value. These subs don't rattle the room, but they do give good, clean bass. (they can rattle the room if I turn them up to the point that my system is very unbalanced with the subs playng 20dB plus over the mains) If your primary objective is to feel the explosions and stuff in movies or you're a super bass head into EDM or deep organ music these might leave you wanting more. If you want super convenient subs that are great for most music and good for action movies too these will do it for you. I've listened to a lot of various music from jazz and singer/songwriter to pop and EDM and everything sounds great! I've never listened to $4,000 subs, but I think if a person really wants to feel the bass ported will be the way to go. Sealed subs as a whole might, and I say might, be more accurate above 40Hz than ported subs, but ported seems to pressurize the room better. My old subs were only $100 each, they had 10" drivers and only 100 watts RMS, but those little ported Polk cheepo subs punched way above their weight. The SVS subs cost 11 times more and are a lot better but nowhere near 11 times better. Probably twice as good or three times as good at best, IMHO. Subjectively, I can highly recommend the SB 3000's. Especially for music, smaller rooms, WAF, and controllability/adjustability. If you want every last drop of bass I'd recommend looking at larger, ported subs.
 
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