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Would ceiling treatment help here?

tifune

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Basically my layout is fixed, I'm not willing to let go of the window view. I'd be OK with turning the desk a little, which would make surround R placement tricky, or sliding it a few inches (but can't block the door). As you can see, I'm having quite a bit of trouble around 120Hz and trouble in general on most of my L speakers. I was just experimenting with those 4" panels to see what impact it would have on the GRADE reports, they can be moved wherever might be helpful.

Genelec support has been graciously making suggestions, but I don't want to abuse their generosity so thought I'd post here as well.

A few ideas I have:

  • Run GLM bass management around 40Hz so I can maintain AutoPhase and use Audyssey to crossover at 120Hz with subs placed in a better location to fill the notches
    • AutoPhase doesn't work if you run full band, but maybe I can just enter the values manually now that I know what they are?
  • mount 1-2 panels on ceiling
    • would hate to start drilling holes if I'm wrong about this
  • "tighten" the listening area by pulling desk closer to back wall in hopes of more reflections hitting the panels than the window
    • past a certain point this would just be ridiculous, maybe even impossible for a 7.x setup
My main use case is Auro3D upmixing, I don't have much discreet multich music. I'm not opposed to it, I just can't find a system that works for me. That is, for example I never found a way to bitstream Atmos from Apple hardware without keeping a monitor connected. The subs are under the desk simply because I didn't have long enough cables to run to all monitors bass-managed. I'll likely buy more cables and move them to back wall, or preferably, find a way to just use LFE of Denon.
 

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ernestcarl

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I presume the effect of 1 or 2 4-inch ceiling cloud panels in the bass frequencies to be negligible to none — nevertheless, I’d prefer to go with 6-inches at least. Now, I would not dismiss cloud panels as useless. It will still help reduce the overall RT or reflection-decay levels at your listening positioning a bit — but don’t expect miracles — one really requires a lot of treatment in the wall surfaces to bring the full-range balance down as seen in chapter 6 of your GLM report. I still would not expect much below ~100Hz from any regular panels.


After finding the best position(s) for your sub, you can manually “simulate” what overlapping xo sub with your (mixed phase xo EQ corrected) left channel will look like using REW’s alignment tool — or any arbitrary channel if you can take isolated sweeps (before any shared bass-managed EQ per channel).

However, I wouldn’t know how well that prediction is going to work out with the AVR processor added along in the chain.
 

Marc v E

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Ok, I don't know nearly as much as others here on accoustics but I do know of complex systems and how to analyse the root cause of a problem. So here is my 2 cents worth:

*It looks to me the placement of monitors is way too close to each other.
Especially the back/side monitors and the front ones next to your screen.
Start from testing with the front 2 only, or even 1 and see when you get a good response. I would even consider placing the front 2 monitors horizontally higher than the screen.

*Another thing I would try is turn the desktop 45 degrees so that you face the window directly. That way you don't have a wall so close behind you, messing up the direct sound with reflections.

*Then after adding channels 1 by 1 (or 2 each time max) see if it solves your problem. Add the bass unit the last so that you know your system and can play with the position of it. Under a desk doesn't sound good to me where direct sound is what we'd want. I would start from the side and see what works.

Solving it this way you will know if it is the monitor placement, the early wall reflections or the ceiling that is the root cause. Imo I think it very unlikely that the ceiling is the cause of your problems. Much more likely early reflections to the screen, back wall or speakers cancelling each other out at lower frequencies.
 
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2020

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Obviously this is not on topic at all but looking at your image, all I can see is money.

SEVEN Genelec "The Ones" AND dual subs!?
 

mightycicadalord

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Obviously this is not on topic at all but looking at your image, all I can see is money.

SEVEN Genelec "The Ones" AND dual subs!?

You missed the Neumanns sitting away on the floor lol.

I think the setup needs moved to a better location in the room before tossing in more treatment.
 

FeddyLost

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I see no options for significant improvement over current results without proper placement and extensive (= a lot of) room treatment.
If you use multichannel audio in small room, for best results you'll need really low decay times between subwoofer and "ray geometry" ranges (80-500 Hz).
Best solution IMO is to ask audio consultant or try to use some high-endish equipment with support of Auro 3D and room correction like Trinnov Altitude.
 
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tifune

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Best solution IMO is to ask audio consultant or try to use some high-endish equipment with support of Auro 3D and room correction like Trinnov Altitude.

I'd love to, but surprisingly I can't find any near me that I trust. I'm outside Chicago, but not close enough that anyone from Chicago proper is willing to make the drive.

Is Trinnov really that much better? I figured between GLM and Audyssey there's not much I'm missing, the rest comes down to position (very little wiggle room) & treatment.

*It looks to me the placement of monitors is way too close to each other.
Especially the back/side monitors and the front ones next to your screen.
Start from testing with the front 2 only, or even 1 and see when you get a good response. I would even consider placing the front 2 monitors horizontally higher than the screen.

*Another thing I would try is turn the desktop 45 degrees so that you face the window directly. That way you don't have a wall so close behind you, messing up the direct sound with reflections.

I hadn't really considered they might be too close to each other. I sit very close when I'm focused such that an equilateral triangle achieved, which is setup 101. But, I guess if I pull them apart I'll have room for a center/CH :) I doubt I would actually add a center for 2ch upmix, it's just funny to think of this ridiculous setup becoming even more ridiculous.

Obviously this is not on topic at all but looking at your image, all I can see is money.

SEVEN Genelec "The Ones" AND dual subs!?

Only 4 83x1, then 8330 and 8320s. I'm probably going to sell those, though, and just use the Neumann since they're too beat up to sell and almost nothing comes out of the surround back/rear height for Auto.

I actually had the 8351's as well when I started but their size at this listening distance was absurd so I returned them and bought used 7350s. There's actually a 3rd sub tucked away; currently I'm using GLM for bass management of all monitors but then in the Denon crossing it all over at 40Hz to that 3rd sub. Not that there's very much down there for music, but it helps get rid of this monstrous 20dB null around 60Hz.
 

audio2920

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Nice little setup, but yeah, not huge scope for improvement without being able to re-positon.

My only thoughts are

(1) in rooms with an unavoidable reflection (in your case, the window) I think you have to be careful with broadband absorption in general or else you "reveal" the specific reflection more. (I.e. even if you fully treated the whole room but left the window, that'd be no good as you'd more clearly hear the window bounce as a thing)

(2) but that's not to say some targeted bass trapping might not work; maybe look at whether treating the corners (for minimal disruption to the room) might help?

(3) ceiling is *probably* not the biggest fish you have to fry, I personally wouldn't start there.

Bit OT, but my favorite upmixers are Nugen Halo 3D and PerfectSurround Penteo16. If you've not already heard them and can find a way to put the VST in your chain, the demos are well worth a go. (As with all upmixers you generally have to tame them to the point where they're not softening the transient content on the L/R too much, but still....)
 
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tifune

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Nice little setup, but yeah, not huge scope for improvement without being able to re-positon.

My only thoughts are

(1) in rooms with an unavoidable reflection (in your case, the window) I think you have to be careful with broadband absorption in general or else you "reveal" the specific reflection more. (I.e. even if you fully treated the whole room but left the window, that'd be no good as you'd more clearly hear the window bounce as a thing)

(2) but that's not to say some targeted bass trapping might not work; maybe look at whether treating the corners (for minimal disruption to the room) might help?

(3) ceiling is *probably* not the biggest fish you have to fry, I personally wouldn't start there.

Bit OT, but my favorite upmixers are Nugen Halo 3D and PerfectSurround Penteo16. If you've not already heard them and can find a way to put the VST in your chain, the demos are well worth a go. (As with all upmixers you generally have to tame them to the point where they're not softening the transient content on the L/R too much, but still....)

Thanks! My GRADE score on my L side 8341 & 8331 did improve quite a bit by adding the corner panels, but as you can see I have a ways to go. Reaching the point where I'm regretting this endeavor and maybe just shoot for an A+ 2.2 system since I already have multich in the living room. The Genelec 83x0's really aren't worth the $ for this scenario

I'd actually love to use Halo 3D or Penteo, but I can't find a clear-cut answer as to how I get beyond 7.1 output? Even the more expensive UA units come with disclaimer "max 8 channels". It seems Jriver can do it if I were to buy something like MOTU's Ao24, but that's kind of a gamble without knowing for sure. And of course the other side of the coin, by the time you add up software & hardware you're right around the cost of a Denon/Marantz with plug n play features + their support (not sure how great, but better than nothing)
 

audio2920

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It's an interesting project though, and at least the 83x0s don't leave anything on the table in terms if their ability to work in adverse conditions, so you aren't sitting there thinking "I wonder whether this would work better if I'd bought better speakers" :)

I'm afraid I don't know about the Jriver thing, I only recently started to understand it's capabilities a bit when someone on ASR started talking about it. (I thought it was a basic media player; that's how little I knew.) I run ProTools so it's a totally different kettle of fish. But, I'm sure someone on ASR will have done it with wider-than-8 channel count, and would probably be able to talk about the potential banana skins, having slipped on all of them!

Maybe irrelevant if you aren't happy with the setup overall...? Before you throw in the towel though, I'm always amazed at how much difference some initial bass traps can make. I guess the law of diminishing returns means if you're starting with very little, the first things you do make the most significant progress.
 

dasdoing

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when I last moved I removed all my treatment and left my celing cloud for last to meassure it's pure impact. I had a big 2,4m x 1,20m pet-wool panel - hanging with a big gap.
The effect on FR is neglectable imo. some minor cancelation filled up. here the region with the main diferences:

b.jpg


biggest impact is on ETC beween 4.3ms and 5.5ms for example

c.jpg


now while the ETC revealed some clarity gains, we have to ask if it is desirable. In my case it would make the sound deader only. I ditched ceiling treatment in my new room and I am happier then ever
 

Marc v E

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I like this guy.
Everytime the idea of hanging a couple of absorption pannels in my livingroom crosses my mind, i watch one of his videos and my stupid idea vanishes immediately :D
Can I give you 2 thumbs up?
Excellent video. What's so great is that he explains a hard to grasp subject in very easy chunks. Would be a great asset to the 101 explainations here on the forum.
 
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