Would an external DAC add sound quality to my system?

[Koeitje]

Every DAC manufactured in the past 40 years is audibly transparent unless deliberately engineered not to be, like some boutique DACs with valve outputs. The DAC chips themselves have been transparent since the early 1980s. Consequently, you won't get any audible benefit from an external DAC over what's already in your amplifier.
An external DAC may give you better measurements in terms of lower distortion and noise, but this improvement is completely inaudible.

If you look at the specs for DACs since the 1980s, whether external or built-in to digital players, they have been audibly transparent going back to the earliest players.

S.

I sort of not agree with this. The processor I have has such a high noise level I can hear hiss from the tweeters. If I'd be in a nearfield situation it would be noticeable for sure.

 

[Chrispy]

Besides loads of input from yesterday, more to absorb today. Thanks everyone for all the great input. The common thread among this collective input is I need to forget about DACs for now and readdress the basics. I have boxed up the amp and speakers and returning them tomorrow. I want to return to ground zero and start building around the speakers I land on, which is what I should have done the first go around, but no point in me boohooing over spilled milk.

The most repeated input above is start with speakers. So I have a lot of speakers auditioning to do, which actually sounds fun. Perhaps I need to change the title of this thread to "Should I forget about DACs for now, return new equipment, and start over on my audio basics?"

I'm starting to grasp the concept of room correction that Mr Widget suggested. My Sony home theater system has a room calibration set up using a mic held at my listening location within the room I have used. From what I can tell, room correction looks to be software only (and a mic). So if I have my redirected agenda back to a correct path - First priority - speakers. Second - an amp matched well to the speakers I landed on. Third - once I have the amp and speakers established, buy the software and mic for room correction.

I really like the "look" of Klipsch speakers, so I will include exploring their line to see if they sound as good as they look. I have a small living room, so I don't need gigantic speakers. The Elac models laserjock suggested are another attractive set, so I will include them in a listening test. I would be curious to hear from members here who have an audio system dedicated to music only in a small room such as my living room - it is approximately 12' x 20', and what speakers they landed on.

FWIW the Sony DCAC isn't very good room correction software....

 

[Steve Dallas]

Besides loads of input from yesterday, more to absorb today. Thanks everyone for all the great input. The common thread among this collective input is I need to forget about DACs for now and readdress the basics. I have boxed up the amp and speakers and returning them tomorrow. I want to return to ground zero and start building around the speakers I land on, which is what I should have done the first go around, but no point in me boohooing over spilled milk.

The most repeated input above is start with speakers. So I have a lot of speakers auditioning to do, which actually sounds fun. Perhaps I need to change the title of this thread to "Should I forget about DACs for now, return new equipment, and start over on my audio basics?"

I'm starting to grasp the concept of room correction that Mr Widget suggested. My Sony home theater system has a room calibration set up using a mic held at my listening location within the room I have used. From what I can tell, room correction looks to be software only (and a mic). So if I have my redirected agenda back to a correct path - First priority - speakers. Second - an amp matched well to the speakers I landed on. Third - once I have the amp and speakers established, buy the software and mic for room correction.

I really like the "look" of Klipsch speakers, so I will include exploring their line to see if they sound as good as they look. I have a small living room, so I don't need gigantic speakers. The Elac models laserjock suggested are another attractive set, so I will include them in a listening test. I would be curious to hear from members here who have an audio system dedicated to music only in a small room such as my living room - it is approximately 12' x 20', and what speakers they landed on.

What is your budget for speakers?

I would reiterate this excellent reference for best speakers at different price points:

Passive Speaker Recommendations for USA (by @sweetchaos)

I'm constantly asked which speakers to purchase...so, here you go! :D This guide is for PASSIVE speakers. For ACTIVE speakers go here. Click on the "Spoiler" buttons below to expand each section. Readme: Legend: Passive Bookshelf Speakers: Passive Tower/Floorstanding Speakers: RAN OUT...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Click the Passive Bookshelf Spoiler button to show the list.

Revel, KEF, Elac, newer Polk are all great speakers in their price ranges.

If you are planning on applying room correction in the future, you need to plan for that when selecting an amp. There are many ways to accomplish it. Here are some:

1. Built into streamer (miniDSP, for example)
2. PC running DSP as a source
3. Built into processor / preamp
4. Built into AVR

This approach may not be popular with some ASR members, but you can get a ton of mileage out of buying a Denon receiver that has Audyssey XT32 built in. You will get an audibly transparent DAC, audibly transparent amps, bass management for sub(s), and onboard digital room correction. It will also have HEOS streaming built-in which works well and may be able to see your digital music collection depending on which protocols your ripper/player supports. Of course, you can also connect your player to it digitally. In the future, if you decide you want to, you can turn all the amps off and run an external amp to drive your speakers. This improves the noise and distortion ratings of the DAC and preamp subsystems.

 

[sergeauckland]

I sort of not agree with this. The processor I have has such a high noise level I can hear hiss from the tweeters. If I'd be in a nearfield situation it would be noticeable for sure.

I would bet money that the issue is incorrect gain ranging, not excessive noise.

S.

 

[Overseas]

I can see where you come, sir. Brave men are not shy to go back when they are lost

Re. speakers: solid (read: good & expensive) standfloors, on 3 ways, with sensitivity Spl over 90 dB, the 40 kg/piece type, with attention to the specs (low freq range) - then most probably there is no need for any sub (that would require proper positioning & integration, let alone price).
I am in Europe, my standards in this regard are: Focal Aria 948, Triangle Australe EZ, have a look for comparison.

Or shelf speakers + sub + amplifier with bass management.

 

[Koeitje]

I would bet money that the issue is incorrect gain ranging, not excessive noise.

S.

And how do I fix that? It has excessive noise on my Hypex amplifiers and two different types of studio monitors.

 

[sergeauckland]

And how do I fix that? It has excessive noise on my Hypex amplifiers and two different types of studio monitors.

You need to identify where the excessive noise comes from. It is of course possible that the active monitors are poor, or are being used inappropriately, for example listening too close. One common cause is excessive gain, another is excessive power for sensitive loudspeakers. It's not easy to identify the specific causes remotely, as each case will be different, but if the gain of the system and the gain of each item in the chain is correctly set, then in my experience, noise isn't a problem. 8V output from a Pro source into 500mV input of a consumer product usually is.

S.

 

[Koeitje]

You need to identify where the excessive noise comes from. It is of course possible that the active monitors are poor, or are being used inappropriately, for example listening too close. One common cause is excessive gain, another is excessive power for sensitive loudspeakers. It's not easy to identify the specific causes remotely, as each case will be different, but if the gain of the system and the gain of each item in the chain is correctly set, then in my experience, noise isn't a problem. 8V output from a Pro source into 500mV input of a consumer product usually is.

S.

The moment I turn off the processor the noise floor drops at least 10dB . Speakers are M106, so not terrible sensitive by any stretch. The problem doesn't exist with another source on the same power amplifier / active monitors.

 

[ahofer]

Don't tell John it actually isn't 1978 though ;-)

1978 was the last time I worked in an audio store (as a ”go-fer”). Good times. Except for the abusive, perverted, kleptomaniac who ran the place.

 

[Laserjock]

Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 bookshelf speaker. It was kindly purchased new and drop shipped to me for testing. The DBR-62 costs US $600 a pair from multiple sources/dealers. The DBR-62 comes in black and walnut finish or the distressed Oak and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Read @amirm thoughts here and this chart how they punch above this passive score list.

 

[Napalm Tom]

Thanks for additional info, laserjock. I had to read this whole thread again because there's a lot to take in. I've been auditioning several speakers the last couple days. I've read online by audio enthusiasts regarding "trained ears." According to them, audio enthusiasts' ears evolve to be more critical over time. I'm skeptical if that is really a thing. But to keep open minded that is indeed true and me being an audio newbie, it makes me wonder what sounds great to me today, whether it will still sound great to me one or two years later. But then, that general rule applies to countless hobbies and it looks like audio enthusiasts have no problem selling off their starter systems to upgrade to a better system. Today I'm off to spend another day of auditioning more speakers.

Meanwhile, I'm also shopping for a secondary audio project. I want to add a pair of passive mini bookshelf speakers to my computer station, and get a small amp to drive them. I know I could easily just go with powered speakers, but this is a project of curiosity. They will reside in a partitioned monitor riser cabinet, so space is limited. Anything larger than 6.5 inch wide and 9.5 inch tall would not fit.

Two such mini speakers that would fit is SVS Prime Satellite and Dali Spektor 1. I searched for reviews here on these two models and the closest review I found on SVS is the SVS Ultra, which was not recommended. I did find the review here on the Dali Spektor 1, which concluded with "I won't recommend them, (but) I don't have strong reasons to object to someone buying them either." I'm not going to spend a lot of time shopping for my computer speakers like I am for my main audio speaker system, so for now I'm leaning toward the Dali Spektors. But I'm still searching for other models that would fit within those dimensions.

 

[ahofer]

I've read online by audio enthusiasts regarding "trained ears." According to them, audio enthusiasts' ears evolve to be more critical over time. I'm skeptical if that is really a thing.

Shopping exposes you to a lot of hogwash. Trained Listeners exist, but generally aren't what audiophiles or salesmen are talking about (see linked video). It's good you are here at the 'recovering audiophile' site.

it makes me wonder what sounds great to me today, whether it will still sound great to me one or two years later.

The audio treadmill is a thing, and can even be fun, but it is unnecessary.

 

[GD Fan]

Thanks for additional info, laserjock. I had to read this whole thread again because there's a lot to take in. I've been auditioning several speakers the last couple days. I've read online by audio enthusiasts regarding "trained ears." According to them, audio enthusiasts' ears evolve to be more critical over time. I'm skeptical if that is really a thing. But to keep open minded that is indeed true and me being an audio newbie, it makes me wonder what sounds great to me today, whether it will still sound great to me one or two years later. But then, that general rule applies to countless hobbies and it looks like audio enthusiasts have no problem selling off their starter systems to upgrade to a better system. Today I'm off to spend another day of auditioning more speakers.

Meanwhile, I'm also shopping for a secondary audio project. I want to add a pair of passive mini bookshelf speakers to my computer station, and get a small amp to drive them. I know I could easily just go with powered speakers, but this is a project of curiosity. They will reside in a partitioned monitor riser cabinet, so space is limited. Anything larger than 6.5 inch wide and 9.5 inch tall would not fit.

Two such mini speakers that would fit is SVS Prime Satellite and Dali Spektor 1. I searched for reviews here on these two models and the closest review I found on SVS is the SVS Ultra, which was not recommended. I did find the review here on the Dali Spektor 1, which concluded with "I won't recommend them, (but) I don't have strong reasons to object to someone buying them either." I'm not going to spend a lot of time shopping for my computer speakers like I am for my main audio speaker system, so for now I'm leaning toward the Dali Spektors. But I'm still searching for other models that would fit within those dimensions.

I used the SVS Prime Satellites as surround speakers for a couple years. To my ears they were very quickly fatiguing, even as surrounds. But that's just one opinion, obviously.

 

[Keith_W]

Thanks for additional info, laserjock. I had to read this whole thread again because there's a lot to take in. I've been auditioning several speakers the last couple days. I've read online by audio enthusiasts regarding "trained ears." According to them, audio enthusiasts' ears evolve to be more critical over time. I'm skeptical if that is really a thing.

Why should you be skeptical that your senses can be sharpened? Here are a few examples from other fields:

- Perfume manufacturers employ "noses", people who have undergone years of training in smelling and have qualifications in chemistry. The rest of us only think perfumes smell nice, but only "noses" can tell you whether it has "notes of leather, bergamot, and a hint of tobacco".
- Wine connoisseurs can regularly taste things in wine that I can not. I might be able to pick up a few notes like dark grapes, melon, coffee, and citrus, but my tasting library is nowhere near as extensive, nor am I able to distinguish between grape varieties.
- Professional racing drivers have a sense of the amount of grip in their car at the limit. I have experienced this myself in go-karts, where you can somehow feel that you are about to break traction, but never in a road car on the track.
- Ever tried reading braille? Of course I can feel those bumps. But my fingers are unable to discern a pattern, let alone feel how many bumps there are without being very careful. Trained braille readers sweep their fingers over the page at a speed that I can't imagine doing.
- People who go blind are able to navigate with sticks and can sense nearby objects by hearing or feeling heat through their skin. Try sneaking up to a blind person.

I have performed so many sine wave sweeps that I can pick with my ears where the frequency dips are going to occur and my guess will be reasonably accurate. This is how I knew my microphone was off (see my recent thread) because what I heard did not correlate with what my mic was telling me. As a doctor with many years of experience, I can hear heart murmurs and feel lumps that medical students can't.

We are all equipped with the same senses, but you have to train yourself to pay attention to those senses.

It is a well known phenomenon. Nothing to be skeptical about.

 

[Napalm Tom]

The audio treadmill is a thing, and can even be fun, but it is unnecessary.

Good point. The speaker auditioning has been fun so far.

I used the SVS Prime Satellites as surround speakers for a couple years. To my ears they were very quickly fatiguing, even as surrounds. But that's just one opinion, obviously.

Thanks for your opinion. I'm leaning towards the Dali Spektor over the SVS Sat.

Why should you be skeptical that your senses can be sharpened? It is a well known phenomenon. Nothing to be skeptical about.

All good analogies you mention. I even forgot I too have tried personal adaption myself. There's an African Cichlid fish when it's put in a small aquarium, it stays relatively small. But when its put in a really large aquarium, that fish grows quite large. I applied that theory in an experiment on myself by wearing really, really large underwear.

 

[Keith_W]

All good analogies you mention. I even forgot I too have tried personal adaption myself. There's an African Cichlid fish when it's put in a small aquarium, it stays relatively small. But when its put in a really large aquarium, that fish grows quite large. I applied that theory in an experiment on myself by wearing really, really large underwear.

Damn! If that works, I have to try it!

 

[Mr. Widget]

I applied that theory in an experiment on myself by wearing really, really large underwear.

Finally I understand why some like boxers... I could never figure it out. Thanks!

Regarding auditioning speakers, it is a blast, or at least it should be. Listening to the same speakers in a few different rooms is also pretty instructive.

 

[SkyTrax79]

If it's like someone said above that all normally produced DAC in the last 40 years are audibly transparent, I wonder why there is so much models that are tested and measured ? I personally always thought that they sounded the same, I still use sometimes a Yamaha CD player CD-2 from 1984 and never thought it sounded different from another model from 2004. I don't think I will hear the difference between 0.0028% and 0.0046% THD.

For computer sound cards the difference I noticed is mainly for the analog inputs, the outputs sound the same to me with all effects disabled unless there is a ground loop problem or some other interferences. But the analog inputs are always really bad on anything that is onboard or cheap no name 10 $ sound card. I have never seen in 30 years a single onboard solution that as a line input that is able to tolerate a standard 2 V output form a stereo component without clipping, and without not much noise. On the other hand all dedicated sound card I had were relatively correct, and that include the first one I got in 1994, a Sound Blaster Vibra 16.

Edit: just to specify that I grown up on the 80's and studied sound engineering in the late 90's and for me a DAC is the Digital to Analog Converter chip inside whatever digital audio device, without amps, only the op amp in the output analog filter, that's what I said I never heard one really unlistenable unless it was broken or really badly implemented. And if you listen to any CD from the 80's through the mid 90's they all passed through early PCM adaptors like the Sony PCM-1630 with old 16 bits 2X oversampling Sony CX 20152 DAC chips, and we're still enjoying the music to this day.

 

[notsodeadlizard]

Hello, newbie here and newbie (again) to hi fidelity. Separate from my 7.1 home theater system, I invested in an Emotiva BasX TA1 Integrated amplifier, SVS SB-1000 Pro Subwoofer, and a pair of KEF 301 speakers for my music listening. The only audio source connected to it and the only source I listen to is a Brennan B3 Hard Disk CD Ripper/Player which is connected to the Emotiva via optical. The set up as is, produces a pretty incredible sound. But like most of you probably do the same, this renewed interest in high fidelity, has me exploring other components for ideal sound.

The Emotiva's internal DAC is provided by "Analog Devices AD1955 24/192k DAC," according to the Emotiva website, but I really don't know what that means. I am DAC illiterate, but watching youtube audiophile bloggers rave about DACs, even specific to my Emotiva, I saw comments like, "adding an external DAC to this Emotiva BasX TA1 takes it to a whole new level!" My knee jerk reaction was, "well, I got to have that!" I watched DACs 101 tutorial videos and have a vague grasp of their function.

If I were to add an external DAC, I realize they range from just 20 dollars to thousands of dollars. And the DAC 101 tutorial videos I watched helped me understand the better DAC units provide better performance than say, a 20 dollar unit. That said, my comfort spending range would be between 500 to 700 dollars. However, I'm hesitant that it will truly make a difference or I'm buying into sensationalism from audiophile bloggers. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

​

Certainly not.
No external DAС will make your system better.
But it can make it worse because it adds unnecessary external wires.
You have an excellent DAC built into your amplifier.

 

[kiwifi]

Nope. As others said: start (always) with speakers and RoomEQ

Actually you should start with the room. Unfortunately you will likely only realize this after you have exhausted every other option. At least, that's what happened to me!