Worth getting a DAP / amp / dac for portable use?

[alluvial]

Hi,

another very basic question, pardon my ignorance.

Currently I use my phone (Pixel 3a) and Shure 846s for work and commute. I pretty much just use Spotify & Bandcamp, as most of the music I listen to is relatively obscure.

While this forum is amazingly useful with all of the empirics based advice it provides, I am unclear whether it is worth buying a dedicated DAP, or some other similar option (ES100? NX4?) to improve my listening experience.

Basically, I am willing to spend extra $$$ is it is actually going to provide a reasonable improvement in sound, but my preference is for simple and light. So I am not sure whether it is worth it, or whether I should put that money towards some more full sized cans, desktop amp etc.

Thanks.

 

[BDWoody]

Hi,

another very basic question, pardon my ignorance.

Currently I use my phone (Pixel 3a) and Shure 846s for work and commute. I pretty much just use Spotify & Bandcamp, as most of the music I listen to is relatively obscure.

While this forum is amazingly useful with all of the empirics based advice it provides, I am unclear whether it is worth buying a dedicated DAP, or some other similar option (ES100? NX4?) to improve my listening experience.

Basically, I am willing to spend extra $$$ is it is actually going to provide a reasonable improvement in sound, but my preference is for simple and light. So I am not sure whether it is worth it, or whether I should put that money towards some more full sized cans, desktop amp etc.

Thanks.

I would first ask if you are easily getting the volume you require out of your current setup without distortion? If so, you may not get much of an improvement, if any. Phone DAC's these days are generally quite decent, but they can fall short in the headphone amp dept.

Some phones are known to have more focus on audio (LG...), with the DAC's measuring in the desktop range.

An outboard amp (atom), or dac/amp (dx3 pro or similar) would be options.

An apple dongle may also give you what you need...

Unclear enough?

I suggest doing some searching and reading on the site...tons of good info.

 

[sajunky]

Happy with MP3 or AAC compressed media and Bluetooth? You don't need anything more. If you want more clarity and details than Bluetooth can deliver, it is difficult to say. There are number of USB dongles powered by modern DACs, They are measured wery well, but you must listen first - and - listen for many hours to see whether it doesn't cause a fatigue. If it does, you will simply stop listening to music!

Topping D30 have very good measurements and reputation on this forum. It is not portable, I give it as an example, I don't like it. A reason is that it doesn't reproduce well harmonics of natural instruments, reverbations and everything that is behind when playing loseless CD material. Its DSP processor is focusing on bringing dominant tones clear and remove harmonics/noise. When dominant tones are very close together (like in multiple strings of piano key) it may even lead to dissonance. You hear like the piano was intentionally detuned which is not the case. This effect doesn't show when music is delivered in MP3 form, as there is no such details in the material.

I don't know what you mean about obscure music. Poor quality recordings of accoustic instruments or a square music (when during recording volume is compressed and everything is very loud). If the later, then D30 kind and everything recommended on this forum will work fine.

I am in favour of the first one. Quality of recording is not my primary concern but ability to reproduce tones and harmonics. I will be getting this, it is portable: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32881225029.html

Not sure it will work with your headphones. You must be careful with HP amp, it seems impedance is very low, 9 Ohm.

 

[BDWoody]

Happy with MP3 or AAC compressed media and Bluetooth? You don't need anything more. If you want more clarity and details than Bluetooth can deliver, it is difficult to say. There are number of USB dongles powered by modern DACs, They are measured wery well, but you must listen first - and - listen for many hours to see whether it doesn't cause a fatigue. If it does, you will simply stop listening to music!

Topping D30 have very good measurements and reputation on this forum. It is not portable, I give it as an example, I don't like it. A reason is that it doesn't reproduce well harmonics of natural instruments, reverbations and everything that is behind when playing loseless CD material. Its DSP processor is focusing on bringing dominant tones clear and remove harmonics/noise. When dominant tones are very close together (like in multiple strings of piano key) it may even lead to dissonance. You hear like the piano was intentionally detuned which is not the case. This effect doesn't show when music is delivered in MP3 form, as there is no such details in the material.

I don't know what you mean about obscure music. Poor quality recordings of accoustic instruments or a square music (when during recording volume is compressed and everything is very loud). If the later, then D30 kind and everything recommended on this forum will work fine.

I am in favour of the first one. Quality of recording is not my primary concern but ability to reproduce tones and harmonics. I will be getting this, it is portable: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32881225029.html

Not sure it will work with your headphones. You must be careful with HP amp, it seems impedance is very low, 9 Ohm.

To the OP...

There are many you will read, mostly elsewhere but occasionally around here who make completely uncontrolled subjective claims like those made above. The reality is that when challenged to demonstrate their ability to differentiate between two DAC's, they either start making more unsupportable claims, or disappear.

Some of the more obnoxious have been offered $500 or more by the site host to show their prowess once the levels are matched and they can't look...but no follow up so far.

I guess the excuse has now evolved to many listening hours to tell? That's convenient...

Point is...very valid on the Bluetooth idea.

The subjective part of all that you can feel free to take as his single data point vs the science of hearing and sound. Science, and properly done tests will support not hearing a difference between these things.

 

[sajunky]

Some of the more obnoxious have been offered $500 or more by the site host to show their prowess once the levels are matched and they can't look...but no follow up so far.

I guess the excuse has now evolved to many listening hours to tell? That's convenient...

Point is...very valid on the Bluetooth idea.

You lied on the beginning when saying you were addressing this post to the OP. This is derrogatory comment suggesting taking bribe by 'some', on the border of a personal remark, so I will not respond to such comments any further. Who will offer $500 bribe (or more) for suggesting $42 device assembled from a recycled DAC chips? You didn't even qualify your accusation to look reliable, you look like a troll.

As for the Bluetooth, I use it on the road as it is convenient, when my activity or environment events prevent me from focusing on subtle detais in music. Loudness war is working well on a poor equipment as well. When home, I am in desire for something better, that brings me more close to the stage. Unfortunately when sound is reproduced more clean and detailed, these details appear to be false to the brain and my brain is definitely getting problem with processing such artificially 'enhanced' junk.

 

[BDWoody]

You lied on the beginning when saying you were addressing this post to the OP. This is derrogatory comment suggesting taking bribe by 'some', on the border of a personal remark, so I will not respond to such comments any further. Who will offer $500 bribe (or more) for suggesting $42 device assembled from a recycled DAC chips? You didn't even qualify your accusation to look reliable, you look like a troll.

As for the Bluetooth, I use it on the road as it is convenient, when my activity or environment events prevent me from focusing on subtle detais in music. Loudness war is working well on a poor equipment as well. When home, I am in desire for something better, that brings me more close to the stage. Unfortunately when sound is reproduced more clean and detailed, these details appear to be false to the brain and my brain is definitely getting problem with processing such artificially 'enhanced' junk.

As I said, your comments on bluetooth had some value, but again, the rest is nonsense.

I'm not sure what 'bribe' you are talking about... In fact, since you seem to be keen on talking about nonexistent differences, have you actually demonstrated any of your golden ear claims to be true? No? Oh.....

I can certainly quote where you were challenged with a money award after talking out of your ass if you'd like? Didn't think your memory was so poor. Or maybe when the moderator stepped in because you were so needlessly contentious?

You keep saying the same subjective crap, and you keep acting like you are surprised when someone calls you out.

Who is the troll?

To the OP:
There is a ton of actually valid input on this site...but not from everyone.

 

[THW]

with all due respect, the $500 statement is more a bet/challenge than a bribe, stop sperging for no reason, jfc

 

[sajunky]

As I said, your comments on bluetooth had some value, but again, the rest is nonsense.

I'm not sure what 'bribe' you are talking about... In fact, since you seem to be keen on talking about nonexistent differences, have you actually demonstrated any of your golden ear claims to be true? No? Oh.....

I can certainly quote where you were challenged with a money award after talking out of your ass if you'd like? Didn't think your memory was so poor. Or maybe when the moderator stepped in because you were so needlessly contentious?

You keep saying the same subjective crap, and you keep acting like you are surprised when someone calls you out.

Who is the troll?

To the OP:
There is a ton of actually valid input on this site...but not from everyone.

//ignored//

 

[BDWoody]

//ignored//

So surprised...

 

[BillG]

While this forum is amazingly useful with all of the empirics based advice it provides, I am unclear whether it is worth buying a dedicated DAP, or some other similar option (ES100? NX4?) to improve my listening experience.

If the audio subsystem is the same as the 3a XL, which it most likely is, I wouldn't think so as it's already quite good according to this:

"Audio quality
The Google Pixel 3a XL had an exemplary performance with an active amplifier, getting top marks for clarity and delivering very loud output.
The high volume was well retained with headphones too, so the phone will have no trouble driving even high impedance sets to sufficient loudness. We also saw so very little degradation in terms of quality - the stereo crosstalk increased a bit more than average, but on the other hand no other readings moved, so we'd call it a win."


https://www.gsmarena.com/google_pixel_3a_xl-review-1928p3.php

If you've got some difficult to drive ear/headphones that you've using with it, you will notice some improvement with a higher output amp, though...

 

[alluvial]

If the audio subsystem is the same as the 3a XL, which it most likely is, I wouldn't think so as it's already quite good according to this:

"Audio quality
The Google Pixel 3a XL had an exemplary performance with an active amplifier, getting top marks for clarity and delivering very loud output.
The high volume was well retained with headphones too, so the phone will have no trouble driving even high impedance sets to sufficient loudness. We also saw so very little degradation in terms of quality - the stereo crosstalk increased a bit more than average, but on the other hand no other readings moved, so we'd call it a win."


https://www.gsmarena.com/google_pixel_3a_xl-review-1928p3.php

If you've got some difficult to drive ear/headphones that you've using with it, you will notice some improvement with a higher output amp, though...

Thanks. From my naive understanding, the 846s are not hard to drive. (happy to be corrected...) I was intending on getting one of the suggested desktop solutions for my ancient HD580 however (plus other headphones I am looking to acquire)

Leaving aside the controversy above.... Another way of phrasing the question is: what are you actually getting from a DAP other than a DAC and amplification? I mean in terms of sound quality alone.

One thing would seem to be playing higher res files - This is where my point about 'obscure' music comes in. I simply meant unpopular, with the implication that you can't find it on Tidal, let alone in DSD. You can download albums from Bandcamp in WAV or AIFF. Would there likely be some value, in principle, of having these high res versions, and playing them for a DAP? Or is that really just smoke and mirrors as well?

 

[sajunky]

Leaving aside the controversy above.... Another way of phrasing the question is: what are you actually getting from a DAP other than a DAC and amplification? I mean in terms of sound quality alone.

One thing would seem to be playing higher res files - This is where my point about 'obscure' music comes in. I simply meant unpopular, with the implication that you can't find it on Tidal, let alone in DSD. You can download albums from Bandcamp in WAV or AIFF. Would there likely be some value, in principle, of having these high res versions, and playing them for a DAP? Or is that really just smoke and mirrors as well?

You will find differences when reading more about Android sound system. It is mixing various sources, so it has to do sample rate conversion. Android mixer works on 48kHz sample rate, it cannot be changed, so your 44.1kHz WAV files (CD standard) are always converted and this conversion quality is reported worse than on Windows. Are there methods to avoid it? I can't answer this, especially how it works on pixel, as the phone not distributed in our country. The other way is to use external USB DAC dongle, the best if is compliant with Audio Class 2 standard. It may still require a special player with its own driver to bypass Android mixer, there are still compatibilty problems, especially when accessing internal volume control on the DAC. This is all I know, so far I only use Bluetooth with Android phone.

A DAP on the other side don't have a mixer, it will pass to the DAC any supported audio files in an original format. There are no compatibility problems as everything is in one device. It is why DAP's are popular.

If I were looking for the Android device as a music source, I would rather chose WiFi streaming receiver and an appropriate app.

 

[BillG]

Are there methods to avoid it?

From my understanding, that would depend on the music player application being used. For example, Poweramp has its own high resolution sound engine which can talk directly to the hardware on applicable devices, thus bypassing the Android mixer. I've been using it for years, by the way, and it's consistently rated as one of the best Android music players. I think Neutron has something similar. I don't know about others...

https://powerampapp.com/

P. S. Poweramp now has Chromecast support for streaming directly from local storage on one's devices.

 

[BillG]

Would there likely be some value, in principle, of having these high res versions, and playing them for a DAP?

You might have better dynamic range, but 16 bits already puts us at the limits of human hearing anyway. So, I'm going to say, not really.

 

[amirm]

While this forum is amazingly useful with all of the empirics based advice it provides, I am unclear whether it is worth buying a dedicated DAP, or some other similar option (ES100? NX4?) to improve my listening experience.

I can't stand the user interface or response time of DACs. They just don't hold a candle to smartphones.

That said, I am uncomfortable draining the power from my phone listening to music. I worry about too little power when I need to look up something urgent. So having a second device that you can run down with music fits that anxiety.

 

[BillG]

I worry about too little power when I need to look up something urgent.

Fast charging, wireless charging, high capacity batteries, and soon, graphene based batteries (Samsung is introducing them commercially next year) should help to alleviate that anxiety...

 

[Frank Dernie]

I can't stand the user interface or response time of DACs. They just don't hold a candle to smartphones.

That said, I am uncomfortable draining the power from my phone listening to music. I worry about too little power when I need to look up something urgent. So having a second device that you can run down with music fits that anxiety.

When I was annoyed by Apple I tried a Samsung phone, maybe sacrilege but the main reason I gave up on it was the battery life, probably 24 hours at most. The Iphones I had before, and since, last 3-4 days and I listen to lots of music some days.

 

[BillG]

When I was annoyed by Apple I tried a Samsung phone, maybe sacrilege but the main reason I gave up on it was the battery life, probably 24 hours at most. The Iphones I had before, and since, last 3-4 days and I listen to lots of music some days.

Sorry, but that assertion doesn't stand up according to this site's battery testing - the S10 best the XS Max by 12 hours:

https://www.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone1=9319&idPhone2=9535

 

[maxxevv]

If its for commute uses, go wireless, very liberating especially if you have to grapple with crowds. Other than longer rides that I get to sit comfortably, I don't use wires for my IEMs anymore.

You lose out way more "sound quality" to the background environmental noise than whatever transmission losses that can occur.

On the cheap, get a TRN BT20S ( the "S" version is newer with more codec support). And buy a JDS atom for your desktop needs.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Sorry, but that assertion doesn't stand up according to this site's battery testing - the S10 best the XS Max by 12 hours:

https://www.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone1=9319&idPhone2=9535

It was a while ago.
I gave the phone away in the end. If I charged it over night the battery was low before I went to bed, the iPhones I have had before and since have not needed charging often, at most every 2 days often 3 or 4.
Yes only one data point as an actual user but it was very, very real for me. A monumentally crap experience I have no wish to repeat.
I have since decided to be a Google free zone due to their data harvesting strategy, which has turned out to rule out a lot of the internet, so also no Android for me.
Whilst, as a programmer from 1971 to 1985, I should welcome open platforms some of the software I have seen makes me a fan of closed systems keeping the worst crap off the market so unlike many of the people I worked with I don't use Windows any more either...