Worst measuring loudspeaker?

[MattHooper]

Anyone who uses EQ regularly would also have been aware of how adding or subtracting various frequencies, including bass frequencies can affect the overall sound and tone.

Btw @Newman, nice to see you finally acknowledging Toole’s advocacy for tone controls includes dialing for Personal Preference.

 

[garyrc]

Back to paper cones, excursion, and cone destruction, for a moment.

From the time I got my first system at 16, my woofer cones have always been paper 15" and horn loaded. I never blew one, even though:

1. I got up to a probable 115 dB (peaks) from JBL D130s
   
   
   , with the bass control turned way, way up. Sounds like a 16 year old, right? My old Radio Shack meter, and another I borrowed from school, showed needle swings a bit beyond 110 dB, C weight, fast. Those old JBLs had a sensitivity about 101 dB/2.83w/1m, and I think I was putting about 100 wts into them. I think their power handling capacity was then 25 wts. After more than 40 years of hard service, including frightening use in an auditorium, I sold them, intact and sounding great.
2. Much later on, I got a pair of Klipschorns (paper woofer, in a horn) about the same sensitivity, and occasionally used them at the same SPL.
3. I would never take such a chance with my other speakers, including Bozak, ADC, Infinity, Wharfedale, etc.
4. These could probably handle it.
   
   They used 5 of them (20 15" paper cones) behind the screen at my favorite 70mm cinema. During the simulated earthquake and thunder storm during the crucifixion in Ben-Hur, they shook the concrete floor and caused a gust of wind to travel through the theater.

 

[fredoamigo]

Kharma Excuisite Midi 3.0.​

103 000,00 €
https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/kolumny-glosnikowe/4051-kharma-excuisite-midi-3-0#laboratory

 

[dfuller]

Kharma Excuisite Midi 3.0.​

103 000,00 €
https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/kolumny-glosnikowe/4051-kharma-excuisite-midi-3-0#laboratory

Jeez. It's okay, horrible, then okay again. What a bizarre speaker design. Bad crossover, maybe?

 

[fredoamigo]

Jeez. It's okay, horrible, then okay again. What a bizarre speaker design. Bad crossover, maybe?

the mega bbc dip is voluntary in my opinion

 

[Sokel]

Problem with multichannel (or even stereo) is lifestyle.
People try to make their house as a miniature version of what they see in lifestyle articles about the top houses,mega mansions,etc.

Today's stuff are nowhere to show audio stuff in them,most of them have them hidden and smart,etc.There ARE elaborate dedicated rooms or HT but these are rarely shown.
And they are not "success" statements,by all means.

So it's a niche that's going smaller by the time.Now combine this un-interest with no intentions about learning even the basics about gear and all its left is today's market,a wild west.Some expensive stuff around still have their practical use (same as art) renamed as a company's "announcement system" for example but that's it.

Measurements are the very bottom of the pit in this picture,all a smart company can do is sell a story (measurements are a story too,but at least is one close to reality) .
The vast majority of people shop by emotion.So...

 

[thewas]

Jeez. It's okay, horrible, then okay again. What a bizarre speaker design. Bad crossover, maybe?

In the review its writes:

"The manufacturer does not explain anything more on this matter, does not even provide a crossover frequency, does not present the company's crossover concept or any priorities, does not boast about special components. Finally, I found a photo of a ribbon coil and capacitor with the company logo, but it also had the words "SilverGold" on it... so Mundorf.

And this sentence: Kharma crossovers use a special technique that is rarely used because of its complexity. And that's it. The measurement results show phenomena around the possible crossover frequency between the midrange and the tweeter that suggest the use of 1st order filters, or maybe even the lack of low-pass filtering of the midrange speaker (and also high-pass).

The technical information on the company's website is very brief, even for luxury high-end speakers, whose potential customers should not be scared away by too difficult a reading. Unfortunately, breaking into the Midi's interior was also out of the question, because the speaker mounts are covered with tightly fitted rings."

More typical audiophool BS:

History - Kharma

The rich history of Kharma Kharma is well known for its rich history and innovations in high-end audio. The journey started in the early eighties, but before that the passion was already sparked. When Charles van Oosterum was just a boy of fourteen year old, he went looking for old radios at...

kharma.com

Vision - Kharma

Kharma’s Vision Dutch Masterpieces Like a genuine piece of art can evoke the special feeling of beauty and emotions. This philosophy is applied in the creation of every Kharma product by offering a window to the artistic performance. The journey begins In the early eighties Charles van Oosterum...

kharma.com

 

[Sokel]

Unfortunately, breaking into the Midi's interior was also out of the question, because the speaker mounts are covered with tightly fitted rings."

I see is ported,a small camera through the ports could work miracles
Pff,reviewers have no imagination

 

[thewas]

I see is ported,a small camera through the ports could work miracles
Pff,reviewers have no imagination

Possibly they also don't want to displease their feeding hand

 

[Fidji]

Kharma Excuisite Midi 3.0.​

103 000,00 €
https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/kolumny-glosnikowe/4051-kharma-excuisite-midi-3-0#laboratory

and it is still quite positive review …….

 

[Purité Audio]

Reviews ‘must’ be positive the only place where you will ever read a completely honest review is right here.
Keith

 

[thewas]

Reviews ‘must’ be positive the only place where you will ever read a completely honest review is right here.
Keith

Only measurement data are 'honest', the rest is always subject to human subjectivity, so it is important to have educated readers who can decided themselves based on that data.
Good measurement data can be found not only here but also few other websites and magazines.

 

[fredoamigo]

and it is still quite positive review …….

Reviews, or rather those who give them, and even when reading between the lines, it's always a balancing act between half-truths and reality. They cannot be completely objective because they do not have the financial independence to say what they want, plain and simple. This is why they should not be blamed. To my knowledge, the only one who can afford to be objective is Amir.
But sometimes, there are good reviews like here for the B&W 803 D4
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...s-803-d4-loudspeakers-a-secrets-video-review/

 

[Mnyb]

In the review its writes:

"The manufacturer does not explain anything more on this matter, does not even provide a crossover frequency, does not present the company's crossover concept or any priorities, does not boast about special components. Finally, I found a photo of a ribbon coil and capacitor with the company logo, but it also had the words "SilverGold" on it... so Mundorf.

And this sentence: Kharma crossovers use a special technique that is rarely used because of its complexity. And that's it. The measurement results show phenomena around the possible crossover frequency between the midrange and the tweeter that suggest the use of 1st order filters, or maybe even the lack of low-pass filtering of the midrange speaker (and also high-pass).

The technical information on the company's website is very brief, even for luxury high-end speakers, whose potential customers should not be scared away by too difficult a reading. Unfortunately, breaking into the Midi's interior was also out of the question, because the speaker mounts are covered with tightly fitted rings."

More typical audiophool BS:

History - Kharma

The rich history of Kharma Kharma is well known for its rich history and innovations in high-end audio. The journey started in the early eighties, but before that the passion was already sparked. When Charles van Oosterum was just a boy of fourteen year old, he went looking for old radios at...

kharma.com

Vision - Kharma

Kharma’s Vision Dutch Masterpieces Like a genuine piece of art can evoke the special feeling of beauty and emotions. This philosophy is applied in the creation of every Kharma product by offering a window to the artistic performance. The journey begins In the early eighties Charles van Oosterum...

kharma.com

A nice the first order filter fallacy preventing high end aficionados from good speakers since forever

 

[MattHooper]

A nice the first order filter fallacy preventing high end aficionados from good speakers since forever

Heeey! Watch it there! The Thiel speakers I’ve owned use first order crossovers and they sound terrific!

 

[Newman]

Problem with multichannel (or even stereo) is lifestyle.
People try to make their house as a miniature version of what they see in lifestyle articles about the top houses,mega mansions,etc.

Today's stuff are nowhere to show audio stuff in them,most of them have them hidden and smart,etc.There ARE elaborate dedicated rooms or HT but these are rarely shown.
And they are not "success" statements,by all means.

So it's a niche that's going smaller by the time.Now combine this un-interest with no intentions about learning even the basics about gear and all its left is today's market,a wild west.Some expensive stuff around still have their practical use (same as art) renamed as a company's "announcement system" for example but that's it.

I posted some counterbalancing thoughts a few days ago, here.

 

[Sokel]

I posted some counterbalancing thoughts a few days ago, here.

I can't speak for all of course.
So I'll take myself as an example.These days we have to decide how to fill out living room at our main floor.It's 100 m² with all the front open (either glass doors or totally open when we open them) .
Typical new stuff as you can imagine.The "smart" me already told the electrician to install 3 20A cables running to 3 sockets on a wall that I imagine I can install some stuff before painting and stuff so no damage will occur after.I also passed some channels under the floor for future somethings,I don;t know yet.

But you know what?The more I think about the more I abandon the idea of visible stuff.And truth be told such a room would need some serious size gear to fill if done properly.
I admit I'm at a dilemma and I'll probably end up to make a corner with something super nice looking and small,with the SQ being my last concern.
I know I already have a dedicated so I would be the last to complain.But even if I didn't I have come to a place to see an audio shrine as an oddity.And a way more oddity spreading speakers all around.
Ok for the dedicated,not the main house though.

(that's me,right?I don't judge)

 

[Newman]

But you know what? The more I think about the more I abandon the idea of visible stuff. And truth be told such a room would need some serious size gear to fill if done properly.
I admit I'm at a dilemma and I'll probably end up to make a corner with something super nice looking and small, with the SQ being my last concern.
....(that's me, right? I don't judge)

Yeah, I'm not judging either. It's just that you raised an issue that is as old as the hills, WAF, and in your case also SAF (Self Acceptance Factor).

That's why hifi gear tends to look like furniture compared to studio gear. Grill cloths. Wood grain. Gloss polished. Tall and thin. Floorspace considerations.

I believe the products have evolved in style to match the trends in decor. But WAF will always head in the direction of no hifi at all, because a non-audio person could always find something more attractive to do with that space. So, the only question is compromise, or no compromise. No compromise in favour of non-audio means no gear. No compromise in favour of audio means whatever gear sounds best to oneself, regardless of appearance. If WAF (or SAF) is uncompromisingly non-audio, then that's that.

But that has always been the story, even when stereo was ubiquitous.

It seems that you already have a dedicated audio room, and the question here is for a new room in which audio is secondary. I don't see anything new in your story that relates more to today than it did in the past.

As for your new room, or anyone else in the same situation, high quality MCH is definitely still an option. Have you any idea just how good is the best in-wall and in-ceiling audio? I think you might be shocked. And if you think 100 m2 is too big for in-wall, then take a look at JBL Synthesis or a competitor. More than good enough.

My conclusion is that MCH is not making things so bad that it is the reason audiophilia is shrinking. Audiophiles have always been a small minority of people who enjoy listening to recorded music. The challenges we face getting audio into our homes in an acceptable way have always been there. The solutions have evolved to match the challenge, even with MCH.

cheers

 

[Sokel]

As for your new room, or anyone else in the same situation, high quality MCH is definitely still an option. Have you any idea just how good is the best in-wall and in-ceiling audio? I think you might be shocked. And if you think 100 m2 is too big for in-wall, then take a look at JBL Synthesis or a competitor. More than good enough.

My conclusion is that MCH is not making things so bad that it is the reason audiophilia is shrinking. Audiophiles have always been a small minority of people who enjoy listening to recorded music. The challenges we face getting audio into our homes in an acceptable way have always been there. The solutions have evolved to match the challenge, even with MCH.

cheers

Hence the dilemma.
My mind has already DIYied a whole invisible wall with two floor to ceiling arrays for bass,etc.

Problem is I want the view too.I'll explain myself.We're uphill with view to the city as well as the mountains and the sea.
Now I'm writing a storm is about to begin.What better hour to blast some Tchaikovsky while nature outside would make its thing?

I have even think to install two main speakers,invisible,as columns to the said glass thing.

Pfff..My inner self wants to put Kyron Gaia and get it as industrial as it gets!

 

[Soniclife]

Problem is I want the view too.I'll explain myself.We're uphill with view to the city as well as the mountains and the sea.
Now I'm writing a storm is about to begin.What better hour to blast some Tchaikovsky while nature outside would make its thing?

I'd love a listening room with a great view, very envious. Sounds like nice headphones would be a good idea until you resolve what you want to do with speakers in that room.