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Worst measuring loudspeaker?

I just got sucked into reading Erin's review and video of the Borrensen X3, :facepalm:
I'm not going to waste time typing a long thread post here but $11,000 to end up with a on-axis response like this, what more really needs to be said?
I left a note on the video letting Erin know I think he's going soft, "I kind of liked the boom boom, etc etc" ???
He sounds like Atkinson trying to justify the bad measurements against a good subjective review. :p
A 20db change from 76hz to 280hz, I've seen room modes with better response, not to mention whats going on between 1k and 5khd.
What a disaster.
CEA2034-Borresen-X3.png
 
I wish I could say the same. I've had a few duffers but I've had a lot of speakers, many bought on a whim. Bad ones include:

Lowther Acousta - although replacing the Lowther drivers with something more capable improved them no end.

JPW Mini Monitor - no redeeming features, distorted when cranked even a little.

JBL Control One - better than the speakers in the TV.

Studio Spares Classic SN10 - An NS10 clone, say no more.

Possibly others that my mind has supressed the memory of. But none of those I've listed were at all expensive.

I can see that.

In my case, almost every loudspeaker that ended up in my room was one that I had heard before and had been impressed with.
Which is why I bothered to bring them to my home in the first place.

I can think of only one loudspeaker that I truly did not enjoy, and that was a speaker that was sent to me where I’ve never even heard the brand before. I was reviewing loudspeakers at the time, and I can’t remember if this was within the context of possibly doing a review or not. But in any case, it was so horrible I thought it was broken and I sent it back. I wouldn’t have bothered reviewing a speaker like that anyway, because my approach was singling out loudspeakers from the many I have heard that had impressed me in one way or another and that I found interesting to write about. So it’s not a consumer reports “ let’s review everything that comes down the pipe” but rather, given my limited time and resources in regards to reviewing, “ I’ve done the work and investigated plenty of speakers, here are the ones which stood out to me as having certain special qualities worth telling you about.”

I understand that the consumer reports approach of trying to review a large section of what’s available in the marketplace, can also be a good approach.

But anyway, my main point is that careful pre-vetting worked for me in terms of enjoying virtually every speaker I’ve tried at home.
 
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But anyway, my main point is that careful pre-vetting worked for me in terms of enjoying virtually every speaker I’ve tried at home.
I can fully understand your point and also enjoyed many years ago of getting different loudspeakers to test and find what I enjoyed and less what not about them. :)
Can also say that getting a deeper understanding of the science behind like measurements and listening mainly to more neutral references has taken away much of this fun as I now more quickly detect the shortcomings and when having heard them I cannot enjoy as much the rest anymore.
Thus enjoyment is also depending on the personal expectations and habituation. As a short fun anecdote, in those days I once got my hands on a pair of cheap but big Technics 3-way loudspeakers mainly made for some export markets, thus very light non braced cabinets, cheap drivers and a "crossover" with only 2 electrolytic caps. I expected it to sound as horribly as it was engineered but actually on the first listening even enjoyed it more compared to my much more well engineered and neutral measuring loudspeakers. Anyway later when I started doing my own measurements I found out that my back then listening room and placement caused a large upper bass dip which was more filled by their "boombox" tuning.
 
Now that is a better measuring speaker


1996 price equates to $17K today. Still a lot but a big saving on fifty grand.

That one actually looks slightly worse, imo, though not by much. It's close.
 
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I just got sucked into reading Erin's review and video of the Borrensen X3, :facepalm:
I'm not going to waste time typing a long thread post here but $11,000 to end up with a on-axis response like this, what more really needs to be said?
I left a note on the video letting Erin know I think he's going soft, "I kind of liked the boom boom, etc etc" ???
He sounds like Atkinson trying to justify the bad measurements against a good subjective review. :p
A 20db change from 76hz to 280hz, I've seen room modes with better response, not to mention whats going on between 1k and 5khd.
What a disaster.
CEA2034-Borresen-X3.png
Hehe, now this is a perfect example of something that truly fits the thread title, regardless of the rest of the measurements. A true oddball. I think they even issued a public response to defend themselves against the criticism -but I can’t quite remember where I saw it.
 
Can also say that getting a deeper understanding of the science behind like measurements and listening mainly to more neutral references has taken away much of this fun as I now more quickly detect the shortcomings and when having heard them I cannot enjoy as much the rest anymore.

I think some audiophiles have gotten off on the wrong foot with regard to neutral loudspeakers.

I’m quite sure that some have heard speakers that perhaps they thought were neutral or were told were neutral, but which had something like a scoop out in the lower mids and may be a bit of accentuating in the highs, and found the sound “ analytical” in the sense of sounding unnaturally detailed, and emphasizing recorded artefacts, and also sounding somewhat cool and unwelcoming.

So this is how they formed their views of neutral systems being “ unmusical.”

Likewise, some people may have encountered some high-end speakers for the first time, and heard a level of detail and insight into recordings they never heard before, but found it plenty of familiar music didn’t sound very good through the system.

And then they think “ oh well I guess that’s just an accurate speaker, revealing the limitations of recordings and the music I liked.”

But it may have been loudspeaker that was coloured or lacking in technical performance in ways that let those recordings down, but they just attribute to the recordings. Where as a truly neutral speaker would’ve sounded better with those recordings.

Or maybe they encountered what were thought to be neutral speakers years ago when some people were designing for flat on axis sound without taking care of off axis sound, or maybe designing for flat room response… all these leading to speakers that could be perceived as too bright, but sold as “ neutral and accurate.”

All sorts of different ways I think people come to some mistaken conclusions about neutral loudspeakers, not being pleasant to listen to.

Of course we’ve learned a lot over the years about how to produce neutral sound with good off axis performance, so that the sound is agreeable.

Right now I’m thinking of when I auditioned the Paradigm Persona loud speakers and the Revel Performa speakers close together in time.

For a few tracks, the paradigms came off as pretty neutral and evenly balanced, but it wasn’t long at all before that significant spike at 1K became obvious and wearing on my ears. I left the listening session with fatigued ears and writing those speakers off my list.

Whereas the Revel speakers were truly neutral - neutral done right - and they were smooth and easy to listen to for a long time.

Thus enjoyment is also depending on the personal expectations and habituation.

I agree. One might be habituated to somewhat coloured sound or habituated to neutral sound.

I’m certain I am habituated in some ways to certain aspects. I mean, I’ve certainly developed some criteria for what I like in a speaker. But then again, at points, I’ve owned up to seven different pairs of loud speakers at the same time, which all sounded very different - from tiny Spendors, to big Thiels, to MBL omnis, and a number of other speakers that I would swap around. I don’t think I really needed any habituation time when I swapped speakers in the sense that I would instantly think “ I love this” when I would swap in a different speaker.

My perception is that if anything I’ve habituated to the sound of my tube amplifiers, because no matter what speaker I happen to be listening to, if I try another SS amplifier I don’t like it as much as when I’ve got the CJ tube amps running them. Maybe I’ve habituated to a placebo effect, but it’s the longest running component in my system that I can’t seem to do without.
 
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I think they even issued a public response to defend themselves against the criticism -but I can’t quite remember where I saw it.

As I remember, it was pretty bogus “ we designed by ear, measurements don’t tell the whole story, we have a proprietary approach” kind of thing.
 
This measured performance for $50k ? It’s an insult… no matter if they have produced worse, it’s still ridiculous … of course Wilson laughing on the way to the bank, I am sure they will sell plenty of them
They're probably not even that cheap to make as speakers go... Lots of heavy / dense materials and machined parts. I'm sure the margins are good but I'd be surprised if they were truly laughter-inducing.
 
...
Whereas the Revel speakers were truly neutral - neutral done right - and they were smooth and easy to listen to for a long time.
Exactly, in my past I also thought that neutral loudspeakers would not be easy to listen for a long time and when this actually happened it was due to two reasons, they either weren't neutral as I thought due to the usually limited measurements back then or I had significant room and placement bass dips which messed up the tonal balance making them appear as if they had a problem at the upper mids or highs while it was just lack of bass. Thinking about it later it is logical that neutral loudspeakers or headphones are actually more compatible to the majority of recordings as per average, as shown by some Harman research, the average of the market response is rather neutral and sound engineers want their recordings to appeal to the listeners, making them sounding unpleasant to most wouldn't make sense.

I’m certain I am habituated in some ways to certain aspects. I mean, I’ve certainly developed some criteria for what I like in a speaker. But then again, at points, I’ve owned up to seven different pairs of loud speakers at the same time, which all sounded very different - from tiny Spendors, to big Thiels, to MBL omnis, and a number of other speakers that I would swap around. I don’t think I really needed any habituation time when I swapped speakers in the sense that I would instantly think “ I love this” when I would swap in a different speaker.
Welcome to anonymous loudspeaker addicts :p , I still use and swap several pairs from my loudspeaker collection, although as I wrote above its getting for me more and more difficult to enjoy less neutral ones than I used to, but I see it rather as a challenge then how with EQ, placements and/or subwoofers to make them as enjoyable as possible.
 
I think some audiophiles have gotten off on the wrong foot with regard to neutral loudspeakers.

I’m quite sure that some have heard speakers that perhaps they thought were neutral or were told were neutral, but which had something like a scoop out in the lower mids and may be a bit of accentuating in the highs, and found the sound “ analytical” in the sense of sounding unnaturally detailed, and emphasizing recorded artefacts, and also sounding somewhat cool and unwelcoming.

So this is how they formed their views of neutral systems being “ unmusical.”

Likewise, some people may have encountered some high-end speakers for the first time, and heard a level of detail and insight into recordings they never heard before, but found it plenty of familiar music didn’t sound very good through the system.

And then they think “ oh well I guess that’s just an accurate speaker, revealing the limitations of recordings and the music I liked.”

But it may have been loudspeaker that was coloured or lacking in technical performance in ways that let those recordings down, but they just attribute to the recordings. Where as a truly neutral speaker would’ve sounded better with those recordings.

Or maybe they encountered what were thought to be neutral speakers years ago when some people were designing for flat on axis sound without taking care of off axis sound, or maybe designing for flat room response… all these leading to speakers that could be perceived as too bright, but sold as “ neutral and accurate.”

All sorts of different ways I think people come to some mistaken conclusions about neutral loudspeakers, not being pleasant to listen to.

Of course we’ve learned a lot over the years about how to produce neutral sound with good off axis performance, so that the sound is agreeable.

Right now I’m thinking of when I auditioned the Paradigm Persona loud speakers and the Revel Performa speakers close together in time.

For a few tracks, the paradigms came off as pretty neutral and evenly balanced, but it wasn’t long at all before that significant spike at 1K became obvious and wearing on my ears. I left the listening session with fatigued ears and writing those speakers off my list.

Whereas the Revel speakers were truly neutral - neutral done right - and they were smooth and easy to listen to for a long time.



I agree. One might be habituated to somewhat coloured sound or habituated to neutral sound.

I’m certain I am habituated in some ways to certain aspects. I mean, I’ve certainly developed some criteria for what I like in a speaker. But then again, at points, I’ve owned up to seven different pairs of loud speakers at the same time, which all sounded very different - from tiny Spendors, to big Thiels, to MBL omnis, and a number of other speakers that I would swap around. I don’t think I really needed any habituation time when I swapped speakers in the sense that I would instantly think “ I love this” when I would swap in a different speaker.

My perception is that if anything I’ve habituated to the sound of my tube amplifiers, because no matter what speaker I happen to be listening to, if I try another SS amplifier I don’t like it as much as when I’ve got the CJ tube amps running them. Maybe I’ve habituated to a placebo effect, but it’s the longest running component in my system that I can’t seem to do without.
I tried the smallest Paradigms here and visited the distributor to hear the top of. the range pair ( similar sounding) they looked interesting but as you say quickly uncomfortable, pity because they are attractive designs.
Keith
IMG_1547.jpeg
IMG_1546.jpeg
 
I tried the smallest Paradigms here and visited the distributor to hear the top of. the range pair ( similar sounding) they looked interesting but as you say quickly uncomfortable, pity because they are attractive designs.
Keith
They have such an odd grille design..

What is this, BTW?
1737966778618.png
 
I believe that was an early TP link wi-fi extender ?
We tried those Paradigms when the then new range was released, I believe they are still current.( the speakers not the extender)
Keith
 
I left a note on the video letting Erin know I think he's going soft,

Oh my, Erin doesn't take any light hearted criticism very well does he?
I suppose I'm identified as a ASR lackey around the web now, as by signing my Sal1950 name, which is the handle I've used for years
at many websites around the internet, both audio and firearms related.
Erin was moved to close his response to me with this,
"I suppose I could’ve given it two thumbs up like @amirm did with the $10k Wilson Tune Tot which arguably measures worse. But I didn’t do that …"
WTF ??? :facepalm:
 
Honestly, I think his response is fine, Sal. I didn’t watch his review thinking he was being soft. In fact, I felt he made it clear that he didn’t like the speakers, but he expressed it in a polite way. His other reviews follow the same style -he doesn’t speak in absolutes or use bombastic language like some others. Even so, it was pretty obvious to me that this isn’t a speaker he was impressed by. In his summary, he mentioned that he liked the bass thump, but found it to be lingering too long, and he wasn’t impressed with the midrange or high range either.
 
Honestly, I think his response is fine, Sal. I didn’t watch his review thinking he was being soft.
Seems to me that ever since he got threaten with the lawsuits he's gun shy and afraid to call a spade a spade, maybe understandably so ??
In this particular case that Borressen is a pretty extreme case and IMHO is deserving of some stronger language and well suited for addition to this thread
of worse measuring speakers.
YMMV ;)
 
I just got sucked into reading Erin's review and video of the Borrensen X3, :facepalm:
I'm not going to waste time typing a long thread post here but $11,000 to end up with a on-axis response like this, what more really needs to be said?
I left a note on the video letting Erin know I think he's going soft, "I kind of liked the boom boom, etc etc" ???
He sounds like Atkinson trying to justify the bad measurements against a good subjective review. :p
A 20db change from 76hz to 280hz, I've seen room modes with better response, not to mention whats going on between 1k and 5khd.
What a disaster.
CEA2034-Borresen-X3.png
I got one pair of kef LS60 + 2pcs of KC92 and WiiM Pro+ for about the same price ?
 
Welcome to anonymous loudspeaker addicts :p

I am a recovering member. I have paired down my collection to “just” two different floor standers. I listened to my Thiel 2.7s for most of probably 2022, and switched in my Joseph speakers since then. At some point I’ll put the Thiels back in for a while. I’ve hung onto easy to store speakers like my tiny Spendor s3/5s and really old Thiel 02 small two-ways.
And I also listen to music through my Hales Transcendence loud speakers, which are my Home Theatre loudspeakers but also I just listen to music in surround as well.

It’s like car enthusiasts I guess: it’s not uncommon for somebody who can afford it to have more than one car, insofar is they like the drive and features of each car and like to mix things up. (I have a car enthusiast pal, and he always seems to be driving a different car).
 
It’s like car enthusiasts I guess: it’s not uncommon for somebody who can afford it to have more than one car, insofar is they like the drive and features of each car and like to mix things up. (I have a car enthusiast pal, and he always seems to be driving a different car).
Don't tell me about it, wish I had stayed just at loudspeakers...
 
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