Worst measuring loudspeaker?

[fredoamigo]

That's the problem with discussing measurements here. People generally don't understand it and have been lead astray with spinotana score and comments from reviews that are inaccurate or wrong.

It's not bad design, but a very good one either. Reasons mentioned before.

I often read you with pleasure, but you have contested the Spinorama in particular and Floyd Toole's conclusions in general several times. Could you, regarding the Spinorama, provide your conclusions or what is wrong with it? What would be your solution for evaluating the quality of a well-designed loudspeaker? Thank you
P.S / There is no malice in my message; I just want to understand your position .


here, two messages among many ..

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...e-new-to-this-hobby.50440/page-4#post-1813629

"Don't put too much trust in Harman's studies. When comparison is between mediocre and poor, it isn't telling you much.And don't be fooled by spinorama score. A high score speaker can measure much worse when placed in the room vs one with much lower score."​

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...large-room-dilemma.44236/page-25#post-1592215​

...directivity. https://www.keele-omholt-technologies.com/papers.php But I want to point out that complete measurements is what's needed, not spinoramas. Parts of spinorama is an interpretation of data and some are highly discussable. To put in another way: Would you rather see the complete​

 

[Andysu]

what we are dealing with here is a perfect engine, an eating speaker machine. It's really a miracle of speaker evolution. All this speaker machine does is sine waves and eat and make little speakers, and that's all. Now, why don't you take a long, close look at this sign. Those speaker expensive cable proportions are correct.

Love to prove that, wouldn't ya? Get your name into the National Stereophile Geographic.

lol

 

[Fidji]

It's just me but I completely disagree. Surround is never ever how a music performance is heard. And I love hearing a studio recorded performance without all the noise etc in a live performance.

I get why some prefer it for movie FX (I don't, seems silly when I have a flat screen in front of me and zero visual immersion), but for music absolutely not. Would ruin any resemblance to classical or jazz performances that most certainly don't benefit from FX.

I have had my mind blown by good stereo setups far more than any surround system I have ever heard. Then again, music is my priority.

Surround vs 2Ch - endless discussion. But you are factually wrong - we always hear 360 dg [a.k.a immersive audio] and full range.
Be it rock concert, jazz performance in the club or orchestra, most of the difference or even even everyday life - you do not hear "precise imaging and soundstage depth", you hear car incoming from left and behind you, and that ability will save your life.

Stereo is fine - do not get me wrong, some of the best performances are available only in stereo. And I can agree that most of the "home theatre" type of setups are not that great in terms of their sonic qualities, as they are optimized for different purpose.

But good MCH setup, blows stereo out of the water, every time [sad fact of life being, that it will cost 2-3 times more probably] so you never can get real apples to apples. Biggest part being dedicated room, that needs to meet certain criteria and size, which will stop 90% of people.

My MCH is optimized for stereo AND multichannel music [movies being afterthought] and most of my "hifi friends" say "now I see what you mean, that stereo is just a pale illusion"

I've seen plenty of orchestra unplugged in a nearby performing arts center and there is always sound coming from all around, to the sides, behind and above. It's a dome, never a front stage. Generally, when guys emptied their purses on stereo and don't have the room or budget for a high fidelity multichannel setup, their praise of stereo and dismissal of multichannel can be to a higher degree. Other times, it may just be actions in support of a self fulfilling prophecy that states no technology shall ever overcome the limitations of stereo, for eternity.

Good MCH has this "size of the venue" with ambient of the space. I go quite often to Vienna Philharmonic [Musikverein] and to Berlin - and you just can not replicate the sensation being in big venue in stereo.

 

[pablolie]

Surround vs 2Ch - endless discussion. But you are factually wrong - we always hear 360 dg [a.k.a immersive audio] and full range.

Doesn't alter my point, in fact it reinforces it.

Be it rock concert, jazz performance in the club or orchestra, most of the difference or even even everyday life - you do not hear "precise imaging and soundstage depth",

The orchestra or band sits in front, not around you. The fact the room interacts with the stereo system doesn't change that basic positioning.

[sad fact of life being, that it will cost 2-3 times more probably]

Price is (a) in no way a guarantee a system sounds great, (b) clearly not an issue with many stereo system buyers.

 

[ChrisG]

The orchestra or band sits in front, not around you. The fact the room interacts with the stereo system doesn't change that basic positioning.

... So?

The room that the orchestra is playing in will reflect sound to you from all directions.

Why should reflections arriving from behind you be played through the front L/R speakers?


Chris

Edit to add: Upon reflection, perhaps there's a mistaken assumption here. IMO, a good multi-channel recording will NOT put you on-stage with the musicians. It'll just give you a bit of venue ambience/reverb from the surround channels, improving the "you are there" immersion.

 

[Fidji]

Doesn't alter my point, in fact it reinforces it.



The orchestra or band sits in front, not around you. The fact the room interacts with the stereo system doesn't change that basic positioning.



Price is (a) in no way a guarantee a system sounds great, (b) clearly not an issue with many stereo system buyers.

Did you EVER heard orchestra playing life? Just making sure ....

Most of stereo enthusiasts leave live concerts very confused, as it sounds completely different from their cherished records.

 

[pablolie]

Did you EVER heard orchestra playing life? Just making sure ....

Most of stereo enthusiasts leave live concerts very confused, as it sounds completely different from their cherished records.

I have gone to many, many classical and jazz concerts. Let's just disagree on the topic.

I don't listen to "records". I am not a traditionalist.

 

[dshreter]

I don't have references to cite, but I don't think a listening room is meant to be so live that it recreates the 360 degree ambiance of venue listening. As well, ambiance is not removed from a recording, so having multiple ambiences seems conceptually flawed. And if we're not talking strictly about performed or venue-based music, I don't see why one should limit themselves philosophically to stereo.

I only have stereo at home myself primarily for ergonomic and cost reasons. But put those issues aside I would definitely prefer Mch for the flexibility it provides.

 

[Mart68]

Most of stereo enthusiasts leave live concerts very confused, as it sounds completely different from their cherished records.

Citation needed!

I'll bet that many classical music enthusiasts started going to live concerts at quite an early age. I bet there's still a few knocking about who pre-date stereo!

 

[MattHooper]

My MCH is optimized for stereo AND multichannel music [movies being afterthought] and most of my "hifi friends" say "now I see what you mean, that stereo is just a pale illusion"

Can you describe your multi channel set up?

For instance, the distance/arrangement/speaker height with regard to the loudspeakers and listener?

I agree that good surround is great. However, even though I’ve heard many excellent surround systems (and I include my own), I’ve yet to experience sound as coherent tonally, spatially, and in terms of imaging precision within soundstage, as I get from my two channel set ups. Which makes me especially curious how you’ve set up your L/C/R speakers, especially.

 

[pablolie]

Can you describe your multi channel set up?

For instance, the distance/arrangement/speaker height with regard to the loudspeakers and listener?

I agree that good surround is great. However, even though I’ve heard many excellent surround systems (and I include my own), I’ve yet to experience sound as coherent tonally, spatially, and in terms of imaging precision within soundstage, as I get from my two channel set ups. Which makes me especially curious how you’ve set up your L/C/R speakers, especially.

Also what AVR system aka "amp". They are often not very good, although of course there are very good ones, too.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

The fact the room interacts with the stereo system doesn't change that basic positioning.

The room that the orchestra is playing in will reflect sound to you from all directions.

The room interaction creates anomalous reflections and coloration and cannot reproduce the ambiance of the performance site

IMO, a good multi-channel recording will NOT put you on-stage with the musicians.

It can put you on stage with the musicians, if it is recorded and replayed to do so. However, I think most will not want this.

It'll just give you a bit of venue ambience/reverb from the surround channels, improving the "you are there" immersion.

It can do this to various degrees to improve the "you are there" immersion.............more than a bit.

Also what AVR system aka "amp". They are often not very good, although of course there are very good ones, too.

You don't need an AVR for multichannel playback.

 

[pablolie]

...
You don't need an AVR for multichannel playback.

I know you can use high end power amps with an AVP - but I'd bet most MCh systems out there don't.

 

[dfuller]

I often read you with pleasure, but you have contested the Spinorama in particular and Floyd Toole's conclusions in general several times. Could you, regarding the Spinorama, provide your conclusions or what is wrong with it? What would be your solution for evaluating the quality of a well-designed loudspeaker? Thank you
P.S / There is no malice in my message; I just want to understand your position .


here, two messages among many ..

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...e-new-to-this-hobby.50440/page-4#post-1813629

"Don't put too much trust in Harman's studies. When comparison is between mediocre and poor, it isn't telling you much.And don't be fooled by spinorama score. A high score speaker can measure much worse when placed in the room vs one with much lower score."​

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...large-room-dilemma.44236/page-25#post-1592215​

...directivity. https://www.keele-omholt-technologies.com/papers.php But I want to point out that complete measurements is what's needed, not spinoramas. Parts of spinorama is an interpretation of data and some are highly discussable. To put in another way: Would you rather see the complete​

I can't speak for Bjorn, but part of the issue I see is that it sums vertical and horizontal off axis behavior. Vertical as a whole is much less important outside of height adjustment but summing it can give a false impression of an error.

Beyond that, I find that speakers that become suddenly directional can sound kind of funky - better to have it smoothly transition from omnidirectional radiation to forward monopole.

 

[Sokel]

Looking at the response of the X3 once again I have a crazy urge to put them in a test like that:




They pretend to be floorstanders,aren't they?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I know you can use high end power amps with an AVP - but I'd bet most MCh systems out there don't.

You don't need an AVP, either.

 

[Fidji]

Can you describe your multi channel set up?

For instance, the distance/arrangement/speaker height with regard to the loudspeakers and listener?

I agree that good surround is great. However, even though I’ve heard many excellent surround systems (and I include my own), I’ve yet to experience sound as coherent tonally, spatially, and in terms of imaging precision within soundstage, as I get from my two channel set ups. Which makes me especially curious how you’ve set up your L/C/R speakers, especially.

Simple - 9.8.7 using Trinmov Altitude 32, L-R is using digital our (bypassing trinnov DAC) - Linn Klimax Organik. I use tonally matched LCR - MartinLogan Renaissance and Illusion, all run by purifi 1et9040ba amps. My subs are arranged in Double Bass Array configuration. Re Electrostats - i just like the sound,

but that is second most important thing - most important is dedicated room 32 sqm/3.2 m high, acoustically treated to have uniform decay time from 40Hz up, thanks also to Trinnov Waveforming. And the rest is sorted out with DRC. At the end of the day - is always the room.

 

[ChrisG]

The room interaction creates anomalous reflections and coloration and cannot reproduce the ambiance of the performance site

Not perfectly, of course.
However, having spatially distributed speakers must do a better job than a pair of speakers in front of us.


Chris

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Not perfectly, of course.

Not even close. Just think of the path lengths!

However, having spatially distributed speakers must do a better job than a pair of speakers in front of us.

It's a start.

 

[MattHooper]

Simple - 9.8.7 using Trinmov Altitude 32, L-R is using digital our (bypassing trinnov DAC) - Linn Klimax Organik. I use tonally matched LCR - MartinLogan Renaissance and Illusion, all run by purifi 1et9040ba amps. My subs are arranged in Double Bass Array configuration. Re Electrostats - i just like the sound,

Thanks. That sounds like a serious set up.
But I was also curious about the speaker and seating arrangement.

Martin Logan: I’ve long enjoyed listening to their speakers, with the exception that I’ve never found their hybrids to sound fully coherent.