Worst measuring loudspeaker?

[Dialectic]

I still think Vittora could potentially sound very good taking the quality X-over and drivers used into consideration

They don't. I heard them in a system set up by Greg himself.

As you suggest, Volti loudspeakers are nice furniture and garbage transducers.

 

[Sonny1]

I've never heard a Zu that I thought was remotely what a proper loudspeaker should sound like. Yet they have a cult following. Sean is a super nice guy though.

I agree and I feel bad whoever someone asks me about my opinion of Zu, because Sean is such a good guy. I just tell people they have a unique live sound and many people like them. Like anything, I encourage people to hear them in person but the measurements of Zu speakers are scary. They have a cool look and the company has a very cool vibe. The sound isn’t to my liking but they seem to play pretty loud.

 

[Juhazi]

Sony corp. has a statement to make... active SA-Z1 https://www.stereophile.com/content/sony-sa-z1-nearfield-active-speaker-system-measurements
Price 8000$/pair

The only good thing I can see is that they are so ugly and expensive that no-one will buy them!

 

[30 Ounce]

Sony corp. has a statement to make... SA-Z1 https://www.stereophile.com/content/sony-sa-z1-nearfield-active-speaker-system-measurements

To be fair, Sony and Stereophile explained that the far field measuring technique does not represent how this will sound (or measure) in it’s intended desktop application. I wish they would have simulated a desktop and measured that way but it probably opens a Pandora’s box of measuring each speaker in its ideal setup. Rooms, desktops, mixing consoles have so much influence on what we end up hearing.

 

[thewas]

Sony corp. has a statement to make... active SA-Z1 https://www.stereophile.com/content/sony-sa-z1-nearfield-active-speaker-system-measurements
Price 8000$/pair

What a mess, but weirdly the vertical directivity is much smoother despite the tweeter array

The only good thing I can see is that they are so ugly and expenseive that no-one will buy them!

Sony corp. has a statement to make... active SA-Z1 https://www.stereophile.com/content/sony-sa-z1-nearfield-active-speaker-system-measurements
Price 8000$/pair

The only good thing I can see is that they are so ugly and expenseive that no-one will buy them!

What a mess, but weirdly the vertical directivity is much smoother despite the tweeter array, so one could still turn them to side.

 

[Penelinfi]

This is my measurement/simulation of a budget brand bookshelf you could buy at large department stores. It would be slightly better when hung up on/next to a wall, but otherwise it looks like the only thing they got right was the phase relationship at the crossover region.
This was also from one of their "higher end" models.

I'd reckon that "white van" speakers would measure somewhat similarly but use even lower quality drivers and cabinets.

I've since modified that speaker with just an L-pad and a woofer capacitor/resistor change. Measures as good as I can get it, now ironically the phase is a little off, but I actually quite enjoy it.

 

[AdamG]

This is my measurement/simulation of a budget brand bookshelf you could buy at large department stores. It would be slightly better when hung up on/next to a wall, but otherwise it looks like the only thing they got right was the phase relationship at the crossover region.
This was also from one of their "higher end" models.

I'd reckon that "white van" speakers would measure somewhat similarly but use even lower quality drivers and cabinets.

I've since modified that speaker with just an L-pad and a woofer capacitor/resistor change. Measures as good as I can get it, now ironically the phase is a little off, but I actually quite enjoy it.View attachment 125622

Welcome Aboard @Penelinfi.

 

[jonfitch]

Neumann KH80 because no matter how good it measures we're still going to complain about it

In all seriousness, I've been lucky to not have to measure any truly terrible speakers, but the B&W formation duo is definitely... puzzling. The on-axis is actually decent. But the directivity characteristics... well:

And now vertical. Note these dips are only out to 15 degrees:

I wish I'd been able to calculate a full spin. Who knows, maybe it balances out with more data. But it's not looking good.

But then, they do have a lot of bass, and don't sound too bad on axis. Soundstage is finnicky though.

It seems like B&W's multimedia and Bluetooth speakers have better directivity simply because the smaller woofers mean they can't screw them up even if they tried lol

 

[richard12511]

It seems like B&W's multimedia and Bluetooth speakers have better directivity simply because the smaller woofers mean they can't screw them up even if they tried lol

How small do they get? Would be interested to see the ones you’re talking about.

@napilopez , man, that’s some of the worst directivity I’ve ever seen. The fact that B&W charges $4,000 for that bookshelf is sad. I feel bad for the people that bought that thinking it must be amazing since it’s $3,999 and from B&W .

Given all the resources they have, how can they be so bad at speaker design? Usual answer is that it's intentionally "voiced" that way, but I not sure I buy that here. Too me it looks more like they just didn't care all that much how it sounds, and were designing based on looks. A 6.5" woofer can work in a 2 way with the right waveguide, but they know they'd have trouble selling a (common) design like that for $4,000. I'm thinking they just wanted a big woofer crossed to that 800 series style "open baffle tube" tweeter to be able to charge more. People see that tweeter on top and associate it with the big $25,000+ speakers in the 800 series, which is what allows B&W to sell this at $4,000.

 

[Deleted member 12642]

Zu Essence give the Klipschhorns a run for their money

It's the BBC diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiip

 

[napilopez]

How small do they get? Would be interested to see the ones you’re talking about.

@napilopez , man, that’s some of the worst directivity I’ve ever seen. The fact that B&W charges $4,000 for that bookshelf is sad. I feel bad for the people that bought that thinking it must be amazing since it’s $3,999 and from B&W .

Given all the resources they have, how can they be so bad at speaker design? Usual answer is that it's intentionally "voiced" that way, but I not sure I buy that here. Too me it looks more like they just didn't care all that much how it sounds, and were designing based on looks. A 6.5" woofer can work in a 2 way with the right waveguide, but they know they'd have trouble selling a (common) design like that for $4,000. I'm thinking they just wanted a big woofer crossed to that 800 series style "open baffle tube" tweeter to be able to charge more. People see that tweeter on top and associate it with the big $25,000+ speakers in the 800 series, which is what allows B&W to sell this at $4,000.

Well the interesting thing is that they have made this decoupled tweeter design work with excellent directivity before. The 805 D3, which looks similar if a little less curvy, has an alarming on-axis, but the directivity is very solid:

Credit: Stereophile

As has been discussed, older B&W speakers both had good on axis and off axis. Here's the 805 Matrix, reviewed in Stereophile way back in 1995:

Since Sound United generally seems to generally operate with sound engineering principles, I really hope they help bring B&W speakers back to their roots.

That said.... I still enjoyed the formation duo quite a bit, largely because the bass was so impressive. I have no doubt the 6.5-inch woofer is top-notch, and they managed to squeeze a lot out of it. The on-axis isn't exactly outstandingly linear for a DSP speaker, but despite its jaggedness, it actually is just about +/- 1.5dB from 200-10kHz.

It's just a shame they seemed to have put so little attention to directivity. I distinctly remember the soundstage falling apart/getting mushy when i left the sweet spot, which made it pretty annoying for watching TV with, aside from a reneral recession in the mids. But it probably works for the head in a vice audiophile crowd.

 

[jonfitch]

How small do they get? Would be interested to see the ones you’re talking about.

@napilopez , man, that’s some of the worst directivity I’ve ever seen. The fact that B&W charges $4,000 for that bookshelf is sad. I feel bad for the people that bought that thinking it must be amazing since it’s $3,999 and from B&W .

Given all the resources they have, how can they be so bad at speaker design? Usual answer is that it's intentionally "voiced" that way, but I not sure I buy that here. Too me it looks more like they just didn't care all that much how it sounds, and were designing based on looks. A 6.5" woofer can work in a 2 way with the right waveguide, but they know they'd have trouble selling a (common) design like that for $4,000. I'm thinking they just wanted a big woofer crossed to that 800 series style "open baffle tube" tweeter to be able to charge more. People see that tweeter on top and associate it with the big $25,000+ speakers in the 800 series, which is what allows B&W to sell this at $4,000.

I'm thinking more of the MM-1 or the Formation Series, I think they use 4" or smaller mid/woofers in those speakers. Pretty hard to pull of a big directivity error with smaller woofers.

 

[Spkrdctr]

Perhaps not the worst but Wilson’s, ‘Sabrina X’ courtesy of Hi-fi News,


https://www.hifinews.com/content/wilson-audio-sabrinax-loudspeaker-lab-report

Keith

Wait! We all know that Wilsons are the greatest speakers ever made and are the best in the whole WORLD!! $25,000 dollars of snake oil. By that I mean, sold as "nothing is better" when lots of speakers are better. Do I dare at $25,000 use the word Ripoff? I think I can!

 

[richard12511]

Well the interesting thing is that they have made this decoupled tweeter design work with excellent directivity before. The 805 D3, which looks similar if a little less curvy, has an alarming on-axis, but the directivity is very solid:

View attachment 126010
Credit: Stereophile
View attachment 126019

As has been discussed, older B&W speakers both had good on axis and off axis. Here's the 805 Matrix, reviewed in Stereophile way back in 1995:
View attachment 126021

View attachment 126017

View attachment 126018

Since Sound United generally seems to generally operate with sound engineering principles, I really hope they help bring B&W speakers back to their roots.

That said.... I still enjoyed the formation duo quite a bit, largely because the bass was so impressive. I have no doubt the 6.5-inch woofer is top-notch, and they managed to squeeze a lot out of it. The on-axis isn't exactly outstandingly linear for a DSP speaker, but despite its jaggedness, it actually is just about +/- 1.5dB from 200-10kHz.

View attachment 126014
It's just a shame they seemed to have put so little attention to directivity. I distinctly remember the soundstage falling apart/getting mushy when i left the sweet spot, which made it pretty annoying for watching TV with, aside from a reneral recession in the mids. But it probably works for the head in a vice audiophile crowd.

Interesting that the 805 looks so much better with equally dimensioned drivers. Hard to tell, but crossover seems similar (3.3kHz), so I guess the formation duo woofer just beams much sooner?

 

[Hayabusa]

Sine wave is too easy to detect distortion. In context of loudspeaker measurements, we typically see most distortion in the low end (bass) and it is nonlinear by nature. Ear is not very sensitive to bass distortion, that's why I said 30%

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=19329
https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/audibility-of-distortion-at-bass
Nonlinear distortion, on the other hand, is dependent on the level and frequency of the input signal and can often create many output frequencies based on a single input frequency. Nonlinear distortion is much more difficult to predict and assess, because you have to know what the input signal is like in order to understand its relation to the output, whereas in linear distortion, the distorting mechanism will treat every incoming signal the same way.

Closed box speaker with SEAS T18REX
View attachment 49569

Non-linear distortion generates harmonic distortion on sine waves which is audible in low frequency range above a few percent.
Indeed its more difficult to detect the same distortion levels when playing music. Archimago did some distortion tests with music where for most there is a difference at 3%, but this was full range and not only bass. Where do you have your 30% number from? Did you do a test that specificaly added (non linear) distortion to music , only in the bass?

 

[RoA]

How small do they get? Would be interested to see the ones you’re talking about.

@napilopez , man, that’s some of the worst directivity I’ve ever seen. The fact that B&W charges $4,000 for that bookshelf is sad. I feel bad for the people that bought that thinking it must be amazing since it’s $3,999 and from B&W .

Given all the resources they have, how can they be so bad at speaker design? Usual answer is that it's intentionally "voiced" that way, but I not sure I buy that here. Too me it looks more like they just didn't care all that much how it sounds, and were designing based on looks. A 6.5" woofer can work in a 2 way with the right waveguide, but they know they'd have trouble selling a (common) design like that for $4,000. I'm thinking they just wanted a big woofer crossed to that 800 series style "open baffle tube" tweeter to be able to charge more. People see that tweeter on top and associate it with the big $25,000+ speakers in the 800 series, which is what allows B&W to sell this at $4,000.

Richard, have you heard the Duo's?

 

[richard12511]

Interesting that the accompanying subjective listening review rates them as almost perfect.

Even the summary after the measurements somehow avoids saying really anything negative.

"Summing up the Volti Rival's measured performance is difficult: Its perceived balance will depend to a greater degree than usual on the listener's choice of music and the size and acoustics of the room. Against those reservations must be balanced the speaker's extraordinarily high sensitivity. I hate it when an audio writer says, "Listen for yourself"—but in the case of the Rival, that's all I can say. "

 

[richard12511]

Richard, have you heard the Duo's?

No. I'm just horrified by the objective performance. Never heard them. I suppose it's possible that some might like that directivity mismatch, but I know I wouldn't. What's kinda weird to me is that B&W's other similar speakers have great directivity.

 

[Purité Audio]

A new contender!
https://www.hifinews.com/content/pmc-fact-fenestria-loudspeaker-lab-report
Keith

 

[DSJR]

All these pages and nobody's mentioned Linn Kans from the early 80's (they did a few 'versions' with that name and not sure any were that good). The 1985 issue post KEF's screwing up of the B110 main driver sounded seriously SERIOUSLY awful