Wondering about pre amp clipping?

[Aubergine]

First time user of a pre amp here with a couple questions mainly that i believe i can clip my pre amp i didn't even know this was possible
Aint a pre amp suppose to output a maximum of 2 volts if its unbalanced? So how can it clip then?

I would say i can use about 70 percent max of the pre amps volume control setting my speaker volume any lower and increasing the pre amp makes it distort
Right now my speaker volume control is at about 45 percent pre amp at about 70 percent this aint usual listening volume the pre amp is at about 50 percent at a normal listening volume so almost 50 50 on pre amp and speaker volume setting wise in everyday use

So is 50 percent of my pre amp about 2 volts worths of output then? considering the volume is similar at 50 percent to just plugging my dac straight into my speaker

At 70 percent which is max distortion wise on pre amp with 45 percent on speaker it is party level loud

When i plug my cables straight into the dac so the volume is a lot lower than what my pre amp outputs at max volume speaker volume has not changed on the speaker in fact the pre amp is so much louder i cant push it to the max if i dont want to cause ww3

I cant find any info in the manual about how " hot " the pre amp output is but i assume it is a lot more than just 2 volts is that normal? Is it better to have a hotter gain output to the speaker prior to the speaker amplification or is it better to have a higher amount of gain on the speaker amplification side and a lower input gain?

 

[Eetu]

Usually a SE DAC has 2V output but a pre-amp can output a lot more (depending on gain). Topping A90 has a max output of 9V for RCA for example (18V for XLR).

What do you use as pre?

 

[Veri]

First time user of a pre amp here with a couple questions mainly that i believe i can clip my pre amp i didn't even know this was possible
Aint a pre amp suppose to output a maximum of 2 volts if its unbalanced? So how can it clip then?

What pre-amp? An active pre-amp can definitely add gain. In which case output can be a lot higher than 2V.

 

[Eetu]

If you're using a passive pre-amp (Schiit Sys for example) or a 'volume attenuator' then you're limited to only ~2V with an unbalanced DAC.

 

[sergeauckland]

Preamps with active buffers or electronic input switching before the volume control, or indeed those with electronic volume controls can clip regardless of volume setting as they will have a maximum input level which will depend on the design. DACs can output anything from a typical 2V to 10V again depending on the design, analogue sources can output almost any level, but 5-10V is quite normal.

Consequently, you need to make sure that the pre-amp you're using can handle that sort of input regardless of volume setting.

A pre-amp with mechanical switching straight onto a resistive volume control can handle much higher inputs simply by virtue of being able to turn the volume pot down, but that brings its own problems that mechanical resistive pots tend to lose resolution and balance at low levels.

To know whether your pre-amp is likely to have problems you need to know how the circuitry is arranged, or the manufacturer's manual (or an email to their support activity) should tell you what the maximum input, internal gain and output levels are.

S.

 

[Aubergine]

NuPrime HPA-9 right now i use the aune x8s it says on their website rca output 2.0 volts so i doubt im somehow running to much gain into my pre amp

It dont say if it is an active or passive preamp in the manual and no information about how much gain is output sadly and changing the headphone gain selector dont change the amount of gain when using it as a preamp

The closest i could find is in the manual for the Nuprime 9 dac but its mostly just marketing stuff

quote
A Reference LE Class Preamp

To meet the requirement of customers who want to eliminate extra components in their system, a high-end preamp capable of driving the power amplifier directly is an essential part of the design. The DAC-9 includes features borrowed from traditional high-end preamps: • Advanced, FPGA implemented switched-resistor ladder network for controlling volume, i.e., a single resistor in the signal path at any volume setting. • Individually adjustable volume on each input for precise source level matching. • Volume adjustment in 99 precise, 0.5dB increments.

end quote

Should i lower the gain on my pre amp and increase the volume on my speakers or vice versa which is best for sound quality? Something i thought about was that i cannot distort my speakers in the same way if i plug my dac straight into my speakers i can play it as loud as i want no distortion what is weird about that though is this

Lets say i put my pre amp at 100 percent even at quiet levels of volume through my speaker it distorts so it dont seem to strictly have to do with volume? The speaker just aint capable of being feed to high of a voltage period?

 

[sergeauckland]

NuPrime HPA-9 right now i use the aune x8s it says on their website rca output 2.0 volts so i doubt im somehow running to much gain into my pre amp

It dont say if it is an active or passive preamp in the manual and no information about how much gain is output sadly and changing the headphone gain selector dont change the amount of gain when using it as a preamp

The closest i could find is in the manual for the Nuprime 9 dac but its mostly just marketing stuff

quote
A Reference LE Class Preamp

To meet the requirement of customers who want to eliminate extra components in their system, a high-end preamp capable of driving the power amplifier directly is an essential part of the design. The DAC-9 includes features borrowed from traditional high-end preamps: • Advanced, FPGA implemented switched-resistor ladder network for controlling volume, i.e., a single resistor in the signal path at any volume setting. • Individually adjustable volume on each input for precise source level matching. • Volume adjustment in 99 precise, 0.5dB increments.

end quote

Should i lower the gain on my pre amp and increase the volume on my speakers or vice versa which is best for sound quality? Something i thought about was that i cannot distort my speakers in the same way if i plug my dac straight into my speakers i can play it as loud as i want no distortion what is weird about that though is this

Lets say i put my pre amp at 100 percent even at quiet levels of volume through my speaker it distorts so it dont seem to strictly have to do with volume? The speaker just aint capable of being feed to high of a voltage period?

If you put the pre-amp volume at 100%, and keep the 'speakers' volume low, and the pre-amp clips, then it indicates that the preamp has internal gain and so almost certain to clip.

As the pre-amp has adjustable volume on each input, I would set the loudspeaker's volume control to around 80% and the pre-amp's volume control to around 80% then adjust each individual source's control to achieve a listening level a bit louder than you're ever likely to want. That way, you'll avoid clipping the pre-amp and you should still have plenty of control on the main volume control, and more than sufficient loudness. You'll also minimise the noise contribution from each item.

Getting the gain structure right, meaning getting the best balance between noise, volume control usability and distortion is a largely overlooked aspect of systems. Far too many systems have excessive gain or distortion on peaks which could be avoided with a small effort.

S.

 

[PaulD]

Any piece of equipment with active devices, even just a buffer, can clip. A fully passive volume attenuator cannot clip, but put a buffer after it (usually a good idea) it can clip.

To maximise your SNR and minimise clipping you need to organise the gain structure of your system optimally. Here are some resources to help (note that some of them are more geared to recording studios, but it's the same principle):
https://www.minidsp.com/applications/dsp-basics/gain-structure-101
https://support.biamp.com/General/Audio/Gain_structure
https://www.masteringmastering.co.uk/gainstructure.html

https://musicproductionnerds.com/understanding-gain-structure
https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-how-should-i-optimise-my-gain-structure

 

[Aubergine]

Any piece of equipment with active devices, even just a buffer, can clip. A fully passive volume attenuator cannot clip, but put a buffer after it (usually a good idea) it can clip.

To maximise your SNR and minimise clipping you need to organise the gain structure of your system optimally. Here are some resources to help (note that some of them are more geared to recording studios, but it's the same principle):
https://www.minidsp.com/applications/dsp-basics/gain-structure-101
https://support.biamp.com/General/Audio/Gain_structure
https://www.masteringmastering.co.uk/gainstructure.html

https://musicproductionnerds.com/understanding-gain-structure
https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-how-should-i-optimise-my-gain-structure

Thanks! i will check it out i will also email nuprime and ask them about how much gain the preamp is using see if they respond

 

[Aubergine]

Could an active pre amp color the sound in any way compared to lets say a passive pre amp or just plugging a dac straight into my speakers?

 

[sergeauckland]

Could an active pre amp color the sound in any way compared to lets say a passive pre amp or just plugging a dac straight into my speakers?

It could, if it's a very poor design, but pre-amps are pretty much transparent unless deliberately engineered to have a 'sound'. Normally this will be either high distortion, typically a tube/valve pre-amp, or frequency response anomalies.

Again unless a deliberate design, it's pretty hard to make a pre-amp that has any coloration or sound of its own.

S.

 

[Aubergine]

It could, if it's a very poor design, but pre-amps are pretty much transparent unless deliberately engineered to have a 'sound'. Normally this will be either high distortion, typically a tube/valve pre-amp, or frequency response anomalies.

Again unless a deliberate design, it's pretty hard to make a pre-amp that has any coloration or sound of its own.

S.

So if my dac.. my source... has enough output to feed my speakers i dont really need to use a pre amp is that correct? i could just use the volume control on my speakers or on my amplifier instead and they will perform the same?

 

[sergeauckland]

So if my dac.. my source... has enough output to feed my speakers i dont really need to use a pre amp is that correct? i could just use the volume control on my speakers or on my amplifier instead and they will perform the same?

Yes that's right. A pre-amp is just a convenient way of selecting different sources and having an overall control of volume.

There may be reasons, like tone controls or the need to drive very long cables, why a pre-amp is useful even with a single source, but otherwise, no need.

S.

 

[Abe_W]

Glad the industry's considering Mr. Dellasala's feedback...

 

[Aubergine]

I didn't have to write to Nuprime weirdly enough it was posted on the box but not in the manual

apparently its 6 volts output no wonder it was clipping considering 6 volts is also comfortably above balanced output which i believe is 4 volts? which is the standard in all professional audio settings

Wonder why they made it 6 volts who would ever need that much and i cant think of any devices that can accept 6 volts i decided to see if i could figure out if the reason it uses 6 volts is because it is what the headphone amp is using according to the online calculator i found 6 volts is 10db if input is 2 volts it might be what it uses at high gain when using headphones not sure

Something i thought about was seeing how according to Amir when he reviewed the aune X7s that setting gain to 12db lowers the sinad to 108 from 112 can you just max the output from the Aune x7s in unity gain and increase the volume from the Nuprime would that improve performance rather than changing the gain on the X7s? If i do that i might be able to get close to replicate the Aune x7s at 12 db gain but without any penalties to performance