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WolfX700 Measurements of Holo Audio Spring 2 Lv2

YSC

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For best performance at PCM you need to set "DAC Bits" to 20, so that output is dithered to 20-bit level. With TPDF dither, but you could also use something like NS9 or LNS15 noise shaper at output rates of >=352.8k.

Note that when I measure I take into account whole output spectrum up to 5 MHz or whatever needed to reach point where analog filter's response falls below constant noise floor of the DAC. If you run the DAC at 96k (NOS) there's massive amount of correlated images (distortion) in the output spectrum, so badly incomplete reconstruction. At 1.5 MHz the analog filter manages to remove practically all images and thus you are getting pretty decent reconstruction of the analog signal.

Here's -120 dBFS signal with 24-bit data:
View attachment 56306

And here's the same signal with 20-bit NS5 noise shaped dither, at 1.4112 MHz rate:
View attachment 56307
Sorry but is that measurement for the spring nos? That sounds too good to be the spring in any mode
 
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Miska

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Okay so #2 is cleaner, hands-down agreed. But we are talking... -140dB down ...?

What's the point.

The point is that it is much cleaner / better low level linearity. Improving performance this way is matter of a setting, so why not do it?

Point of my measurements is always to find out how to drive a certain DAC in a way that it produces best possible performance. And in my opinion there is a point to extract best possible performance out of any given DAC.

Sure if someone doesn't care, then they don't need to care. I do care about such. Each to their own.
 

Miska

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Sorry but is that measurement for the spring nos? That sounds too good to be the spring in any mode

Yes of course it is in NOS mode since all DSP has been moved off-board to the player software.
 

Matias

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Yes of course it is in NOS mode since all DSP has been moved off-board to the player software.
Hi Miska, could you also please show a 4V balanced output FFT using your best filters in NOS mode?
 

Music1969

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What's the point.

No comment above was about audibility.

If there is improved objective measurements it's good to know about it...

The end user can decide how important this improvement is but I like to see the measurements.
 

YSC

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Yes of course it is in NOS mode since all DSP has been moved off-board to the player software.
Ic, but that seems like not working for streaming like tidal, personally I feel like having a dac and computer hifi is for quality sound in convenience.
 

gvl

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Ic, but that seems like not working for streaming like tidal, personally I feel like having a dac and computer hifi is for quality sound in convenience.

Miska has a solution that can take a SPDIF signal and send it over USB to a DAC after applying the filters.
 

YSC

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Miska has a solution that can take a SPDIF signal and send it over USB to a DAC after applying the filters.
is it? any link to that? it sounds interesting
 

gvl

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is it? any link to that? it sounds interesting

Google HQ player embedded. You need a to provide a SPDIF to USB interface, like a Minidsp USBstreamer which is supported out of the box.
 

Blkspn

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No, that should be Spring, not Spring2

Hello great Wolf !!!
Thank you for all the test you do !!!

I am upgrading my system from a breeze Audio dual Ak4399 and I would like to try an Holo spring but I am hesitating between spring ( or armature asterion here in France ) and spring v2 , there is more than 1000$ difference . Thank you in advance for you advice .

Ciao
 

Veri

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Hello great Wolf !!!
Thank you for all the test you do !!!

I am upgrading my system from a breeze Audio dual Ak4399 and I would like to try an Holo spring but I am hesitating between spring ( or armature asterion here in France ) and spring v2 , there is more than 1000$ difference . Thank you in advance for you advice .

Ciao
There is not a big difference. Holo designers themselves admitted that, spring 1 to holo May is a much more substantial re-design.
Spring 1 has higher output level so take that in mind. Spring 2 has normal 2V/4V output.

Spring 1 actually does marginally better in multitone than spring 2 in WolfX's tests.
 
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Blkspn

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Thank you Veri !!

I will try to find and used spring 1 !!

Start my research
 

bennetng

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Okay so #2 is cleaner, hands-down agreed. But we are talking... -140dB down ...?

What's the point.
Perhaps pointless but you can dither to 20-bit with one of the dither plugins on this page:
https://foobar.hyv.fi/

...and this resampler supports up to 2.8224MHz, 32-bit float:
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,67373.0.html

Dither should be the last plugin in the DSP chain, and the player's volume control should not be used (0dB) otherwise it will destroy the dither. You can use ReplayGain preamp sliders or file metadata (track/album gain) instead as these are pre-DSP gain and they won't affect the dither plugin.

You can use the same settings in file converter and inspect the exported audio files in Deltawave, Audacity and so on.

IIRC HQPlayer's resampler can achieve 240dB stopband attenuation but real world analog electronics are always a bottleneck, and there are even more bottlenecks after this, so common senses should be applied of course.

Also, while we are talking about PCM processing, Archimago found that his Oppo has worst result with DSD512 upsampling. It may have something to do with ESS's DAC architecture:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-rf-output-important.10600/page-4#post-294860
 

Music1969

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It may have something to do with ESS's DAC architecture:

Or the analogue stage design...

Some ESS based DACs measure best at DSD512 while others measure best at DSD256.

There's no single best PCM/DSD rate performance - it needs to be measured, case by case with each DAC.
 

Music1969

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Higher has no real point.

HQPlayer's designer has showed measurements of some DACs that measure objectively better at DSD512, compared with lower DSD or PCM rates...

Even if the numbers may be beyond audibility, to say 'no real point' on this forum, when measurable improvements can be shown...
 

Veri

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Actually, if you read Archimago's article and read the graphs carefully, his Oppo UDP-205 with ESS's built-in PCM filter performed better than upsampling to any DSD mode, with DSD512 being the worst.
Right :) I meant, if talking about DSD rates. The Oppo was such a good machine though, travesty they went under.

HQPlayer's designer has showed measurements of some DACs that measure objectively better at DSD512, compared with lower DSD or PCM rates...
Any examples? The few I saw did better with 256 than 512.
 

Music1969

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Any examples? The few I saw did better with 256 than 512.

Many measurements over on CA Forum over the years.

Quick example was Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 (ESS DAC chips) measures best at DSD512.

It doesn't make sense to just generalise that ESS based DAC chips measure best at a sample rate - all of the electronics matters, hence better to talk case by case.

i.e. measure the analogue output.

Just like HQPlayer's designer does.

And like I requested wolf to do here with Spring2.
 
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YSC

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Just wondering, if I use windows digital volume control to lower the volume of the spring 2, I know the noise floor will kept at -140dB range and the signal is lowered by whatever dB I reduce, but when I attenuate say 10db from windows 10 (set the direct sound output to be 24/192), will I lost dynamic range from 16 bit files? and will the distortions lower as well (lower signal lower related distortion? I am not sure will this happen) or will the distortion kept at ~-110 dB range and hence significantly lowering SINAD?
 
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