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WolfX700 Measurement of Topping L30 Headphone Amp

Bhargu

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I don’t even know what “neutral” or “accurate” means. I don’t think anybody does. Lol

Hasn't there been a lot of research into the topic of perceived neutrality? Why do you think nobody knows?
 

raistlin65

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SMSL M400 RCA output does this for just $800 :D:D:D a bargain!

48UTsK5.png

I believe the description you're looking for is that "The M400 has gentle, smooth highs without a trace of sibilance, and lows that are not overbearing. Much better than the E30 which has sharp treble and boosted bass."

At least that's the kind of audiofoolery subjective review it would get :facepalm:
 

ShoKz

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yeah. You can. Now, will it be better in any sense that you can actually hear? Doubtful. Although it is more powerful than the Spark. I have both the Heresy and the Liquid Spark myself. The Heresy measures a little better and is more powerful as well...but I very much doubt I'd be able to hear the difference in a volume-matched blind test.
You think the L30 is a more warm (more basy?) or neutral amp?
You say its more powerfull than liquid spark, so those that mean it can drive better a 600ohm headphone?
 

Bhargu

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That’s frequency response of component in question. Does it tell the whole story and is it an indicator of accuracy of music reproduction in inherently flawed chain of components? Headphones and speakers are notorious for harmonic distortion. They are the last in music reproduction chain and are probably the most coloration prone of any components. Given theoretical scenario of every component being virtually flat and uncolored by component choice, power supply or design topology, you still have to deal with the weakest link, speaker/headphones. It makes more sense to compensate shortcomings of speakers/headphones with components that could minimize those shortcomings or ....... tailor the sound to what YOU perceive as “right” and “accurate”. However, when I said “neutral” or “accurate”, I wasn’t necessarily referring to frequency response but to mirror image of what mastering engineers intended for particular composition to sound like. Also, it’s their own interpretation of “rightness” with often very little feedback from actual artists. Measurements don’t mean much if it doesn’t sound correct and music struggles to connect with you on the personal level. It doesn’t mean that spects don’t matter, THEY DO. But there are many variables that play part in this quest for “perfection”.

As @Sgt. Ear Ache says, the headphones or speakers might change the sound signature. But the simple fact is, with a fully transparent and neutral (flat line from 20-20000hz) amplifier (and/or DAC), the output provided to the transducer "WILL BE" what the sound engineer/mastering engineer intended. It is that simple. A caveat is that there is a transducer in the recording side, but it is expected to be compensated for in a properly mastered audio.
 

Sgt. Ear Ache

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You think the L30 is a more warm (more basy?) or neutral amp?
You say its more powerfull than liquid spark, so those that mean it can drive better a 600ohm headphone?

it measures flat...it isn't bassy. But yes, it is more powerful so would drive more demanding phones better. The LS has some juice too though so not sure if that power is necessary in a big way or not.
 

Bhargu

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It's a measurement of noise and distortion. The higher the SINAD, the less audible it is. To a point where it won't be audible.

With a cheap amp or DAC, it's possible you could have a roll-off in frequency response that would be audible in addition to that. But that's typically not a problem with decent DACs and amps. And no one here would recommend a DAC or amp with a rolled off frequency response just because it has a high SINAD, as there are plenty that don't have that problem.

As I said, AKM themselves says they have modified the sound signature at the DAC stage. I don't know if that when done properly, will affect the SINAD or not. It shouldn't affect SNR, but I don't know how distortion is measured for DACs, so I can't really say.
 

MSTARK

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no, the "yikes" is about the idea of spending 6k on a dac that "sounds analog like vinyl."

There's no magic about making a dac perform poorly. Obviously, if an effort is made to color the sound, colored sound is what you get.

Lol I wouldn’t call it a “poor” design. It was designed with specific goals. And it does everything you might need it to do, including streaming, MQA and upgradability down the road. Sound characteristics can also be altered by plug-in via SD card or as a free download. It’s like playing with op-amps but in software domain. Sounds like you can build a better dac and I can’t wait to hear it.

Back to L30..... It will probably be paired with D50 dac which can also be used as a preamp. Would setting L30 at max volume and using attenuation on D50 be a preferred way to set this up or it doesn’t matter?
 

Sgt. Ear Ache

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Lol I wouldn’t call it a “poor” design. It was designed with specific goals. And it does everything you might need it to do, including streaming, MQA and upgradability down the road. Sound characteristics can also be altered by plug-in via SD card or as a free download. It’s like playing with op-amps but in software domain. Sounds like you can build a better dac and I can’t wait to hear it.

Back to L30..... It will probably be paired with D50 dac which can also be used as a preamp. Would setting L30 at max volume and using attenuation on D50 be a preferred way to set this up or it doesn’t matter?

I don't have to build a better dac. I can buy one of several that do the job they are supposed to do perfectly, for around a hundred bucks...
 

3125b

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Building a DAC is an exercise in futility these days, buying a chip (and implementing it as a manufacturer like Topping) or buying a whole unit (as a consumer) is just the more sensible thing to do.
Looking at Schiits Multibit or the numerous R2R solutions clearly tells you, that all you usually get is a higher price and worse performance (with the Mola Mola Tambaqui [11500$, so does that even count?] and maybe some others as an exeption).
 

VeerK

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SMSL M400 RCA output does this for just $800 :D:D:D a bargain!

48UTsK5.png

Ever since the M500 temperature issue, I’ve been worried that SMSL rushes out products too quickly. But if anyone wants a “rolled off warm and lush presentation” use the RCA on the M400 lolol
 

MSTARK

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As @Sgt. Ear Ache says, the headphones or speakers might change the sound signature. But the simple fact is, with a fully transparent and neutral (flat line from 20-20000hz) amplifier (and/or DAC), the output provided to the transducer "WILL BE" what the sound engineer/mastering engineer intended. It is that simple. A caveat is that there is a transducer in the recording side, but it is expected to be compensated for in a properly mastered audio.
In theory yes. Not arguing linearity and lowest possible distortion to be the fundamental part of good design. But IMHO opinion there’s more to it then that. For instance profecional grade 800wpc amp with THD of 0.03 sounded awful in comparison to my 22wpc monos with THD of over %1. But based on spects it looks inferior. So there’s that. If it doesn’t sound good to my ears, does it really matter how many zeros it has? I do get your point of view but I don’t think it’s that simple. If it was, we would all own exactly the same, boring crap and never look back.
 

Bhargu

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Who said anything about transducers that require lots of EQ? I said the opposite. Look for headphones and speakers that have fundamentally good measurements, then EQ as little as possible aiming again for neutrality.

As far as "component matching and synergy" goes, well I will refer you to my previous post where I mentioned imagination.

You mention all your dacs sounding different...do they measure the same (within accepted levels of human audibility)? Because if they do, then once again I refer you to imagination space.

Component matching and synergy is not imagination, but probably real. It is just that people misunderstand what that truly is. It is the process of trying a stupidly large combination of badly engineered components so that the flaws in one will mask/compensate the flaws in the other. If both parts had no flaws, you could save a lot of time, effort and money by not having to do that. And if both parts are neutral/linear, you can then look for your ideal sound signature simply by using a parametric equalizer, which again will be cheaper and provide almost the same end result.
 

MSTARK

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Building a DAC is an exercise in futility these days, buying a chip (and implementing it as a manufacturer like Topping) or buying a whole unit (as a consumer) is just the more sensible thing to do.
Looking at Schiits Multibit or the numerous R2R solutions clearly tells you, that all you usually get is a higher price and worse performance (with the Mola Mola Tambaqui [11500$, so does that even count?] and maybe some others as an exeption).

I do have to agree that DACs came a long way. Quality little dac like D50 (which is super cute and build like a tank) for $250 or so, would be a wet dream 5year ago. But it’s undeniable that people do have preference and what sounds “good” to me might sound like crap to you. I know a guy who loves his 14bit (chip is one of the original ones - Philips??. DAC brand is Border Patrol) simple dac. To him, everything sounds perfect regardless of source or mastering quality. IMHO it is useless as far as hi-res is concern but he loves it. Don’t ask me why as I’ve never heard that dac in my life. I don’t think that dac is cheap either.
 

odyo

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Have you ever seen Innerfidelities measurements for the LCDX?

https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCDXSN7454971.pdf
No major impedance variation. Very good sensitivity needing only 0.22 milliwatts to reach 90 dB.

The answer to your question is that either SP200 or L30 will drive your headphones without breaking a sweat.
That's not really helpful reply. SP200 for example it's low gain is high and can be noisy with sensitive headphones. It's reported by many.
 

MSTARK

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Component matching and synergy is not imagination, but probably real. It is just that people misunderstand what that truly is. It is the process of trying a stupidly large combination of badly engineered components so that the flaws in one will mask/compensate the flaws in the other. If both parts had no flaws, you could save a lot of time, effort and money by not having to do that. And if both parts are neutral/linear, you can then look for your ideal sound signature simply by using a parametric equalizer, which again will be cheaper and provide almost the same end result.

Again, in theory yes. But I don’t think you could guarantee results that would suit every one. Have you ever heard speakers with almost flat frequency response? I have, didn’t like it. Boring, not engaging, flat is how I would describe it. But they sold a bunch of those so somebody did like it enough.
 

odyo

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From what I've gathered yes, you are probably right as far similarities to sp200 go. I'm not super concerned with it being a clone or design execution. I'm strictly seeking help determining which spects would be more friendly towards low impedance planars. Let's put that clone aside and use smsl sp200 as an example vs L30. Not trying to open a can of worms.... just trying to get some feedback regarding these two designs and comparability with one of my cans. Thanks.
L30 is literally perfect single ended product. There is no competition. If you want balanced THX 789-887 and A90 is way to go. Sp200's low gain is not low enough especially for sensitive headphones. Many people reported noise with those.
 

Bhargu

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No, but he put a good effort. I think he achieved speciousness/dimensionality, especially in midrange regions but I’m afraid that at cost of high frequency extension and crispness. Not saying that it isn’t detail but seemed to be somewhat “rolled off”. It’s hard to put it in words without getting ridiculous. Sorry.

A DAC can convert digital data to analogue signals. If it does it faithfully, it is a reference DAC. What you are talking about here is the domain of sound engineering. With care and precision, you can modify the signal to sound in particular ways. Doing it in the digital domain is much easier than doing it in the analogue domain, which is usually a crapshoot (or probably calculated result) followed by a lot of fiddling. So, when they do it on the analogue side, you are paying for their time and effort, but knowing this industry, a lot of us might be paying for nothing. A lot of these audiophile gimmicks are just marketing tricks (pseudo-science mumbo-jumbo), with no real science behind it.

There used to be some consumer companies which put effort into creating DSP filters for the tube/warm sound. iZotope Ozone was a DSP filter for Winamp which tried to do this. It was an interesting attempt. There might still be something similar or better, I haven't looked for one recently.
 

Sgt. Ear Ache

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Component matching and synergy is not imagination, but probably real. It is just that people misunderstand what that truly is. It is the process of trying a stupidly large combination of badly engineered components so that the flaws in one will mask/compensate the flaws in the other. If both parts had no flaws, you could save a lot of time, effort and money by not having to do that. And if both parts are neutral/linear, you can then look for your ideal sound signature simply by using a parametric equalizer, which again will be cheaper and provide almost the same end result.

Well, if by "component matching" one means to put together a system consisting of components that do their assigned task (such as converting or amplifying) without otherwise altering the signal they are processing then sure it's a real thing.
 

MSTARK

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I’m with you on board as far as dac (source) and it’s job is concern. It should be as transparent as possible without adding anything to the signal path. Amps is a bit different animal as I believe amp should complement speaker/headphone and bring the most out of it. Either by compensating for its flaws or emphasizing its strengths.
 
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