Wine Thread

[LTig]

A dealer on Audiogon once tried to make a wine analogy to me about audio measurements. He said that wines are all the same chemically, but taste different. This (the chemical part) is, of course, completely false.

Yep. You can use NMR spectroscopy to detect the molecular structure of the sugars (in wine and fruit juice) and they are quite different. So different that it is possible to find the region of origin or the grape variety. See this PDF of the wine screener.

This method has been used to detect economic subsidy fraud committed by spanish orange juice makers. They imported cheap oranges from South America and labeled the bottles as Spanish to get economic subsidy from the EU.

As a side note: Imagine someone measuring hundreds of wine bottles to build up a data base of NMR spectra for the purpose of detecting the grape variety, the region of origin, and others. The method requires about 10 ml per bottle. So every day we were greeted with a bunch of opened bottles to get rid of...

 

[LTig]

@DDF, nice post. I share your views with but one difference: "Typicity" IMO can be unnecessarily constraining. For example, I love both Sancerre and Kiwi Sauv Blanc, but they're as if from two different grapes entirely. Same for cold climate Zinfandel v. warm climate bush-trained Zin. So as long as it tastes interesting and is balanced I'm open to new creative executions of old ingredients.

In my subjective experience the differences in taste of one grape variety alone are quite high. For example a fat Californian chardonnay differs a lot from an elegant french chardonnay. In fact I'd say those differences may be higher than those between different grape varieties by one wine maker.

 

[LTig]

Funny, IMO (not so humble) the technological interventions have created a consistent average quality the peaks and valleys have been mostly eliminated.

Agreed, but this is also a question of the reputation the wine maker wants to keep. I see it in the small village where I buy wine regularly. It hosts 14 independent wineries and about four of them are really good. Of those good ones the quality is almost independent of the vintage - what is different though is the number of bottles to sell. In a good year they produce much more wine than in a bad year. The key is to cut out enough of the bad grapes to be able to keep the good ones.

 

[LTig]

Oh, don't get me wrong: Climate, soil, solar orientation, etc., etc. definitely change the grapes and hence the potential (underline, potential) for the wine. But so do trellising, clones, yeasts, barrel treatments, types of fermenters, (infections endemic in the winery), etc., etc. change the wine itself.

My point is that a lot of what is called "terroir" is really winemaking and viticultural practice that would produce similar results in many other places far, far away.

I totally agree. There is a small village where I regularly buy wine at two wineries. The owners are friends, but their wines are very different despite their wineyards laying side by side. One is very fruity and has long finish, the others is very elegant to begin with but a short finish. I would prefer a blend of both but I'm sure I could not afford it.

There are, IMO, very few truly unique places that can be tasted in the wine and not reproduced elsewhere.

Yep. The mineral taste of Mosel rieslings is quite unique.

 

[LTig]

I imagine that chance confluences or conditions in one place may match those of another. If so, there's probably a good chance that a very fine taste can be had for cheap from a less-known vintner which matches on the whole certain characteristics of a well-known one.

Yes. You need insider information of the locals though. Locally produced wine of good quality for a good price usually doesn't leave the region - it is all sold to local customers and local restaurants with almost nothing left to export to other regions. This is certainly true for the places where I buy wine.

A few years ago I was in Burgundy and asked my landlord which winery he would recommend. He recommended to buy wine from Southern France since Burgundy wine is totally overpriced - even the locals don't buy it. When I insisted he recommended a winery close by (which is not in the famous wine growing region). I went there and after a tasting bought a case of Sauvignon Gris and - since I had not seen this variety before - two additional bottles as present for a befriended wine maker. When he had tasted the wine he estimated a price of 30€ per bottle. I had payed 11€.

 

[LTig]

Wine? In Tarragona (Spain) we have very good wines, since Rome times.

The romans also introduced wine making in Germany (for example at the river Mosel).

 

[LTig]

Anything is possible. The type of chemicals/additives used or not used, amount of time in extraction with skin on, etc. I just don’t know the details of wine making process to see what all are significantly different between processes.

What about visiting a few wine makers and ask for their opinions?

 

[scott wurcer]

My point is that a lot of what is called "terroir" is really winemaking and viticultural practice that would produce similar results in many other places far, far away.

I have to add, I guess my concept of terroir is more romantic one from a time when the majority of winemaking was essentially devoid of technological interventions and frequently whole vintages were unsalable. I realize it's peoples livings at stake and indulging my reminiscing is not anyone's goal. I can't share 40yr. old experiences with anyone, and considering wine is a living thing the past gets lost and there is not much to do but enjoy what there is in the present.

 

[LTig]

Also letting it breathe for a while, or in some cases coming back to the half bottle the next day, some initially unpleasant wines can be pretty nice.

Definetely true. When I open a bottle of red wine and do not finish it (as usual) I close it with a rubber cork and extract the air inside to slow down the oxidation process. This way the wine keeps longer. However for wine which is not so good it's better to leave it open.

There was one case where I had locked a bottle of not so good wine with said rubber cork and forgot to finish it. Some 4 weeks later I opened the bottle and the wine tasted better than before.

 

[audimus]

The experience you are describing is very interesting to me, especially because the theory of sulphites being the issue causing a reaction has been largely debunked medically (just like MSG and Chinese-restaurant syndrome). Your protein theory, on the other hand, is very plausible.

Grapes, like every living thing, contain protein. Some grapes more than others (the range from low to high can be a factor of 3 or more). And, indeed, the availability of the extracted protein remaining in the wine is modified through the various processes of fermentation and racking. One of the last processes is "fining", which is the removal of various compounds form the wine, almost always including protein. This is intended to make the wine more transparent and resistant to being damaged by high temperature during storage and transportation.

So here's the interesting part: There are various compounds used for fining, including bentonite (a type of clay), isinglass (extracted from fish bladders), casein (milk protein), cow's blood, and beaten egg whites, along with a few others. Trace amounts of these compounds may remain in the wine. I wonder if you might be reacting to one of them? It could explain some of the new world/old world difference you're experiencing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarification_and_stabilization_of_wine

Very informative. Didn’t know about this level of processing. I can rule out reactions to any of the reactants or agents used for fining. That UC Davis study mentioned in the Wiki also determined that the level of such things left behind are miniscule (but I should mention that UC Davis research is also supported financially by the wine industry).

It stands to reason that there is significant differences between old world and new world in this type of processing. Old world has always been much more tolerant of sedimentations while new world has greater marketing focus on clarity, etc. I believe old world also has some rules against certain agents like use of wood chips, etc.

From what I have been able to research, there seem to be differences in extraction (new world is more aggressive in handling grapes), temperatures used during the steps, the use of new oak vs old oak or steel, and as you mention the post-processing. All of these could potentially affect the level of proteins extracted from the skin and how much might remain into the bottle. A full chemical analysis of these wines side by side would probably show some differences but unless one was specifically looking for this, no one would suspect or be motivated to look for it. Of course, there are a lot of crossovers these days.

I also note that there are some similarities to gluten (another protein) differences in types of wheat depending on where they come from.

What about visiting a few wine makers and ask for their opinions?

Tried that early on but this level of chemistry is far beyond the level of knowledge of typical winemakers not to mention being defensive about anything that suggests presence of allergens.

 

[MediumRare]

Definetely true. When I open a bottle of red wine and do not finish it (as usual) I close it with a rubber cork and extract the air inside to slow down the oxidation process. This way the wine keeps.

I have one of the rubber suction stopper systems but I learned the amount of vacuum they create is so weak it doesn’t really change anything (science spoils everything it seems).

If you can afford it, there are cans of argon or nitrogen you can buy to replace the oxygen or a system called Coravin which puts a needle right through the cork. (We use that for really expensive bottles we won’t finish.) The free alternative is to put your unused wine in the refrigerator. You must let the wine come back to the correct temperature before drinking, but it will slow any changes and doesn’t hurt the wine at all.

 

[audimus]

A few years ago I was in Burgundy and asked my landlord which winery he would recommend. He recommended to buy wine from Southern France since Burgundy wine is totally overpriced - even the locals don't buy it. When I insisted he recommended a winery close by (which is not in the famous wine growing region). I went there and after a tasting bought a case of Sauvignon Gris and - since I had not seen this variety before - two additional bottles as present for a befriended wine maker. When he had tasted the wine he estimated a price of 30€ per bottle. I had payed 11€.

Burgundies have been overpriced for a long time. I have had good luck with visiting local wine stores in Bordeaux that are friendly and picking up recommended second labels that are only sold locally.

Right now Languedoc wines seem to have the best QPR in French wines but slowly creeping up as they are being bottled with brand labels as opposed to white labeling for grocery store and department stores as in the past.

 

[scott wurcer]

- Jax Vineyards Y3 - Napa, still under $20, 90+ points from the critics: "concentrated crisp citrus, green pear and apple notes. Fresh aromatics and Chablis like acidity"

Thanks (I will try to find some) but what I was talking about was this, LeFlaive was a favorite producer and even us EE's 2yr. out of college could pop a bottle every weekend if we wanted. BTW I had no idea things have gotten this stupid.

 

[MediumRare]

Very informative. Didn’t know about this level of processing. I can rule out reactions to any of the reactants or agents used for fining. That UC Davis study mentioned in the Wiki also determined that the level of such things left behind are miniscule (but I should mention that UC Davis research is also supported financially by the wine industry).

Regarding financial influence, I think the non-financial connections to the industry are more relevant here. Nearly everyone in the California wine industry has attended UC Davis for at least one class (yes, me too) or works with someone who has a degree from there. So they won't rock the boat too much. And they have narrow thinking just like anyone who lives in their own little world.

So, what does capital-S "Science" have to say (emphasis added):

"Fining agents were not detectable in wines with the available laboratory methods. Nevertheless, positive skin prick test reactions and basophil activation to the relevant wines were observed in the majority of patients with allergy to milk, egg or fish, correlating with the concentration of the fining agent. Among patients consuming wine, reported reactions were few and mild and similar with the ones reported from the control group." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3339366/

My interpretation is: You won't get sick, but could you feel a tickle in your nose? Sure!

 

[MediumRare]

Thanks (I will try to find some) but what I was talking about was this, LeFlaive was a favorite producer and even us EE's 2yr. out of college could pop a bottle every weekend if we wanted. BTW I had no idea things have gotten this stupid.View attachment 37558

I'll take a case!

 

[SIY]

Thanks (I will try to find some) but what I was talking about was this, LeFlaive was a favorite producer and even us EE's 2yr. out of college could pop a bottle every weekend if we wanted. BTW I had no idea things have gotten this stupid.View attachment 37558

Pray that it's not premoxed.

 

[audimus]

Regarding financial influence, I think the non-financial connections to the industry are more relevant here. Nearly everyone in the California wine industry has attended UC Davis for at least one class (yes, me too) or works with someone who has a degree from there. So they won't rock the boat too much. And they have narrow thinking just like anyone who lives in their own little world.

So, what does capital-S "Science" have to say (emphasis added):

"Fining agents were not detectable in wines with the available laboratory methods. Nevertheless, positive skin prick test reactions and basophil activation to the relevant wines were observed in the majority of patients with allergy to milk, egg or fish, correlating with the concentration of the fining agent. Among patients consuming wine, reported reactions were few and mild and similar with the ones reported from the control group." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3339366/

My interpretation is: You won't get sick, but could you feel a tickle in your nose? Sure!

Good point about the connections to UC Davis and the implicit culture to not rock the boat.

Just to clarify that my conclusions for my own case were based on not having allergies (went through a battery of pin prick tests early on) to those mentioned additives/agents - dairy, eggs, shell fish, etc., amongst all other known allergens. But I get the point that it could in fact affect others.

Like gluten early on, the reactions to which were commonly attributed to indigestion, I think the role of inherent proteins from the grape itself is understudied at the moment. Possibly because as in my case the symptoms are likely not as severe as those documented cases for lactose or peanuts or shell fish to cause testing for those known allergens. By being easily attributed to other causes, probably it doen’t raise the awareness to a level that prompts a study.

Trying to find the reference again to that Belgian study.

 

[LTig]

I have one of the rubber suction stopper systems but I learned the amount of vacuum they create is so weak it doesn’t really change anything (science spoils everything it seems).

Pity - but this does not explain why a (not so good) wine tasted better after 4 weeks in a weak vacuum. Possibly the vacuum was not so weak after all. If it did not work at all the wine would have transformed into vinegar ...

If you can afford it, there are cans of argon or nitrogen you can buy to replace the oxygen or a system called Coravin which puts a needle right through the cork. (We use that for really expensive bottles we won’t finish.) The free alternative is to put your unused wine in the refrigerator. You must let the wine come back to the correct temperature before drinking, but it will slow any changes and doesn’t hurt the wine at all.

The Coravin system looks cool, but quite expensive (also the argon cartridges). Have to think about nitrogen ...

 

[scott wurcer]

Pray that it's not premoxed.

Who knows, I'm not peeking into this vat. Lots of fine wines in the 70's now who knows.

EDIT - Was it the 76's that premoxed en mass? I forget. The 77 CA chards were a premox disaster IIRC. I do remember the single barrel Mersault from Mdm Bize that we scrambled to find copper pennies to cure the sulfur.

 

[ahofer]

I have the Coravin system. Works pretty well. You have to take the needle out of the cork quickly to get the longest shelf life. It’s a pain to pour-takes quite a while to fill a glass.