Windows 11 - Bass redirection to a Subwoofer

[-Jim-]

Hi Gents,

This problem is driving me Crazy, so any help would be appreciated. My Denon AVR-S900W receiver is dying a slow death, and it seems my Misses is reluctant to me spending a $1,000 or so on a new Receiver. So I've disconnected most of the functionality audio wise for it, and shifted that to a small Amp I've had for ages in the storage area, along with a spare 12 inch Klipsch Sub (I'm a bit of a nut on Stereos, and Home Theater Systems? I have 3 HT System at home and another at the Family Cabin) I'm not looking for more hardware.

The Computer (Box) is relatively decent as I built it a couple years back with Windows 11 Pro. It's got a Asus TUF GAMING Z690-PLUS WIFI D4 Motherboard, 64 Gigs of RAM, Intel i7 12700K, etc. The 7.1 capable on board audio chip is Realtek, although I still feed video with audio via HDMI on the NVidia GTX-1080 Graphics Card to the Denon when I want to use it with a 55 inch Samsung TV.

I like to listen to Tunes (almost all FLAC these days) while I read the news electronically, surf the web, do email, etc. I used to use Zone 2 from the Denon AVR-S900W receiver to drive some cheap JBL small towers I got for a song years ago. Well the Denon AVR-S900W has decided it's not going to send decent sound to Zone 2 anymore, so it distorts it, making me cringe. The Main Zone is still passable (It's set up as a 5.1 with the same cheap JBL speaker line and a better Klipsch Sub. So the plan is to leave that be for now. (I have been looking for a new AVR of course.)

I've spent hours tinkering to try to get Bass to the Sub via the PC's analogue output. For most of the time I thought it was a hardware problem, but I did get the Sub to make noise using the Realtek Audio Control; and later on using the Windows Settings. I'd like to change the redirect of the low Bass as a "Global" setting in Windows if possible, so I don't have to muck about with it for different applications.

I set the Realtek Audio Control to 5.1 (strangely there is no 2.1) but I don't enable the Center & Surrounds. I also don't enable the Front Left & Right as Full-range Speakers => hoping that would send some bass to the Sub; like AVRs do - but no joy.

I've been using Media Player Classic (MPC) to play my tunes, but couldn't find any Bass Management / Speaker tweaks in it to move low Bass to the Sub. I did see a post when searching in AI "to use the Codec Tweak Tool 6.7.6 to set the speaker configuration to "Same as input"! Of course my version of MPC didn't have that tool so I downloaded the latest version which come with the tool. (I also downloaded and installed the latest Sound Drivers from Asus (the Motherboard OEM). Of course the Tool doesn't quite follow the AI instructions but even if I run it as an Admin, the settings don't change. I enable them but when I go back after closing the App, they are the same as before. No Joy.

So do you have any idea as to how I can do this? I'm not married to MPC, and I'm willing to go to another Player if I can get the Bass to the Sub. I'm only talking about from 25 to 80 Hz to help out the JBLs a bit.

By the way, I know the hardware works 100% because I can play a Blu-ray Concert in Power DVD (Roy Orbison Black & White Nights, and David Gilmore - Live at Pompei were my first test disks.) The Sub rocks just fine, so it's in software somehow. Just now I popped in the 27th Annual Rock & Roll Hall of Fame Blu-ray and Power DVD has great Sub output in DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 and in LPCM 48KHz/24Bits 6 Channel.

As good as Power DVD does with the Blu-rays on the Bass, I can seem to tweak it to do any Bass redirection with FLAC Tunes. It plays them just fine, but just misses the mark with the Sub.

I hope I've provided enough detail. I'm shocked I can't find anything on line about what I think must be a common problem.

Help Please!

 

[Adahn]

Since you're using a realtek card (that doesn't have any decent asio driver) and you don't seem to care about latency, you can do bass management with equalizer apo. Just install it and add whatever filters you want. Here's a simple example, but you can get much more nuanced if you wish.

Channel: LFE
Filter: ON LP Fc 120 Hz
Copy: VSUB=L+R+C+RL+RR+SL+SR
Channel: VSUB
Filter: ON LP Fc 80 Hz
Copy: LFE=LFE+-10dB*VSUB
Channel: L R C RL RR SL SR
Filter: ON HP Fc 80 Hz

It low passes LFE at 120Hz for the real LFE channel content, creates a new virtual channel (VSUB) that carries the signal of all other channels with an 80Hz low pass and adds it at -10dB to the LFE channel, assuming your sub is tuned to +10dB per dolby guidelines. finally high passes the other channels at the crossover frequency.
If you change crossover, make sure to change it for both the high pass and low pass. If bass is too hot, reduce db further when adding to the lfe.

For a low latency solution you'd need an audio interface with asio drivers.

And if you just want bass management for music and don't need it systemwide, you could use foobar. Plenty of plugins can redirect bass in foobar, or even use a vst plugin.

 

[-Jim-]

Since you're using a realtek card (that doesn't have any decent asio driver) and you don't seem to care about latency, you can do bass management with equalizer apo. Just install it and add whatever filters you want. Here's a simple example, but you can get much more nuanced if you wish.

Channel: LFE
Filter: ON LP Fc 120 Hz
Copy: VSUB=L+R+C+RL+RR+SL+SR
Channel: VSUB
Filter: ON LP Fc 80 Hz
Copy: LFE=LFE+-10dB*VSUB
Channel: L R C RL RR SL SR
Filter: ON HP Fc 80 Hz

It low passes LFE at 120Hz for the real LFE channel content, creates a new virtual channel (VSUB) that carries the signal of all other channels with an 80Hz low pass and adds it at -10dB to the LFE channel, assuming your sub is tuned to +10dB per dolby guidelines. finally high passes the other channels at the crossover frequency.
If you change crossover, make sure to change it for both the high pass and low pass. If bass is too hot, reduce db further when adding to the lfe.

For a low latency solution you'd need an audio interface with asio drivers.

And if you just want bass management for music and don't need it systemwide, you could use foobar. Plenty of plugins can redirect bass in foobar, or even use a vst plugin.

Thanks for the input but my problem is no sound comes from the analogue Subwoofer output of the 7.1 capable on board Realtek audio chip, except when I play a capable Blu-ray using PowerDVD. The problem seems to be in the Realtek software provided by Asus. I contacted them and they've acknowledged the problem but keep dancing me around on a solution. They've sent me about 8 emails on it with no solutions, but say they will call me, but never do when I say I'm available. They say they've raised it to their second level support, but still no real contact with even an attempt at a resolution.

Grrr....

 

[Adahn]

No sound comes out of the sub because realtek's driver and the windows mixer are both dogshit. And the asus support you've been talking to is even more useless.
PowerDVD presumably runs in wasapi exclusive mode, bypassing both the aforementioned, thus it works.

The way to fix it systemwide for any normal app that uses wasapi shared mode and goes through the windows mixer, is exactly that, equalizer apo.
You go into the realtek settings and disable all enhancements. Go into windows services and disable the cancerous nahimic audio service that they still install by default for whatever unfathomable reason. Then you install equalizer apo and take control of your hardware.

 

[-Jim-]

I agree that Asus Customer Care is next to useless, but I have little choice as my skills in this area are not enough to do what you suggest without proper guidance.

I now have 19 emails going back and forth with them, with this being their latest. (I deleted my last name and defeated the links.)

"Hello Jim,

Thank you for contacting ASUS Product Support.


My name is Racel A. and it's my pleasure to help you with your problem.

Please fill in the feedback form that I have attached in this email for us to be able to replicate and diagnose the concern properly. The information being asked in the form will be really helpful for us to copy your system setup and be able to come up with the best possible resolution.

I assure you that all the information that you will be providing will be deeply appreciated and we will do our best to get this issue resolved and closed the soonest. I will be looking forward for your response and have a great day.



CASE NO= N2511028163-0012



You are more than welcome to visit our Asus support website: hxxps://www.asus.com/us/support
If you need further assistance or if there is any additional feedback you would like to give ASUS, please feel free to reach out to our customer care escalation team by calling 510-257-7782 (Monday - Friday, 6AM - 9PM PST and Saturday - Sunday, 6AM - 5PM PST)



Best regards,
Racel A.
ASUS Customer Care
Chat with Us if you need further support.

Help make us better! Let us know what we can do to improve by clicking here."

I filled in this form even though I'd sent them a screenshot of all the details on December 1, which they never acknowledged. For that matter they never answer any questions I pose in my replies. They have asked for numerous windows of best time for them to call me. For example:

"Hello Jim,

Thank you for contacting ASUS Product Support.

My name is Jasper E.. First and foremost, thank you for your patience while we completed our review and research of this issue. We apologize for the delay, and are grateful for the opportunity to continue to assist you.

Please provide us your best callback prefer time so we can create an escalation ticket for a callback request with our escalation team or if you are free you may reach out to our customer care escalation team by calling 510-257-7782 (Monday - Friday, 6AM - 9PM PST and Saturday - Sunday, 6AM - 5PM PST)"

I've done this 3 different times and then hung around from 8:00 AM to 12:00 noon PST on my computer, with my cell phone next to me, and they never called! And they never explain why when I ask them.

I'm quite skilled at building and repairing computers, and have used Asus Motherboards for the vast majority of the builds in the last 25 years, as they were the best on the market and well supported in the very few times I had to contact them. (And yes I know I may have paid a bit of a premium for their Motherboards.) But boy have they fallen off a cliff on this one.

On the last few builds I did notice their Manuals are no where near as good as they once were. In fact they are now on par with Gigabyte, ASRock, etc. which speaks volumes on how the mighty have fallen.

I just wish they'd tell me how to fix this.

 

[Adahn]

This is futile, you're just wasting your time talking to chatbots. There is precisely 0 chance these exchanges will lead to a solution.
I've told you what needs to be done roughly. Can't really provide a foolproof step by step guide, but happy to answer any questions if you decide and try to fix it.

 

[magreen]

Since you're using a realtek card (that doesn't have any decent asio driver) and you don't seem to care about latency, you can do bass management with equalizer apo.

Would this work for me to implement a software crossover using EAPO for my 2.1 system, using my DAC and the onboard Realtek together? I currently use EAPO for room correction of the stereo channels sent by USB to DDC->Toslink->DAC. The DAC RCA output is split and sent to both my stereo amplifier and a plate amplifier (with built-in LPF) for my subwoofer. Thus the stereo main speakers run full range. I'd like to high pass the mains and implement proper bass management.

Would your method work to simultaneously output sound to both the DAC and the computer's integrated, ancient, Realtek output connected to the plate amp/sub, with software DSP implemented for the crossover? I could high pass the channels that are going through the DAC connected to the mains.

Would there by timing issues? Likely loss of sound quality?

I generally stream music using Tidal HiFi (EAPO for room correction), and play FLACs using Foobar2000 in exclusive mode (room correction using MathAudio EQ). I suppose I'd need to figure out a separate solution for Foobar2000 in exclusive mode to get the subwoofer output to the Realtek.

 

[Adahn]

Would this work for me to implement a software crossover using EAPO for my 2.1 system, using my DAC and the onboard Realtek together? I currently use EAPO for room correction of the stereo channels sent by USB to DDC->Toslink->DAC. The DAC RCA output is split and sent to both my stereo amplifier and a plate amplifier (with built-in LPF) for my subwoofer. Thus the stereo main speakers run full range. I'd like to high pass the mains and implement proper bass management.

Would your method work to simultaneously output sound to both the DAC and the computer's integrated, ancient, Realtek output connected to the plate amp/sub, with software DSP implemented for the crossover? I could high pass the channels that are going through the DAC connected to the mains.

Would there by timing issues? Likely loss of sound quality?

I generally stream music using Tidal HiFi (EAPO for room correction), and play FLACs using Foobar2000 in exclusive mode (room correction using MathAudio EQ). I suppose I'd need to figure out a separate solution for Foobar2000 in exclusive mode to get the subwoofer output to the Realtek.

It can be done, but it requires a few more things and because of lack of asio drivers you'd either have to deal with high latency or the ocassional buffer underrun when the cpu is loaded.
To do bass management you first need to create an aggregate audio device that combines the two physical interfaces you want to use. VBaudio's Matrix can do that.
You could use that audio device directly with EAPO and call it a day. Sort your crossovers and be done with it.

Alternatively, you could pass that audio device to VBaudio's Potato/Banana and take advantage of the insert driver it offers to run it through a vst host like cantabile, for more exotic processing and better latency.

I'd recommend an audio interface with 4 line outs and decent asio drivers instead if possible. But if that's all you got to work with, then yes, it can work and it can work perfectly well. No timing issues or loss of sound quality, assuming your realtek card is not entirely terrible and has some basic shielding.

I got such a system set up for addresssing more than 8 audio channels, upmixing, downmixing, room correction etc. Takes a bit of effort to setup initially, but then it just works.

 

[magreen]

That's amazing! I'm checking out VBaudio Matrix now for creating the aggregate audio device.

I had always heard that if you try to use two DACs at once, it can lead to timing issues. Does VBaudio aggregation take care of that problem?

 

[magreen]

I've been auditioning my Realtek ALC221 line out through my headphone amplifier. It ain't good. But it's not as bad as some that I've heard. I've listened with a low pass filter as well, and I think for my purposes -- frequencies under 80Hz, summed to mono for a subwoofer -- it'll be adequate.

If I can use two USB DACs without introducing timing problems, that will certainly be a step up.

 

[Adahn]

Matrix takes care of all timing issues, yes. Use its internal clock for master, set it at the lowest tolerable buffer, add your asio or wdm interfaces and set channel routing in the routing grid. You should be able to go down to 192 samples with wdm devices if you want fast latency for gaming or something. Otherwise set it to 512 or even higher for stability.

I know their ui is not exactly user friendly, so don't hesitate asking if you find any trouble.

 

[magreen]

Sounds like I could use two USB DACs then. That should be a step up over the Realtek.

This is purely for music listening, and perhaps the occasional video. So latency doesn't bother me.

Thanks!

 

[dualazmak]

Matrix takes care of all timing issues, yes.

It would not be always so, unfortunately, if you use two independent DAC units of different brand each has its own ASIO driver.
I rather intensively tested/evaluated "the trigger lag issue" even with VB-AUDIO MATRIX 1.0.2.5; please refer to my post #1,021 on my project thread.

I believe we should clearly separate the two points/issues in this regard of multiple-channel DAC processing;
1. trigger (kick-off/start-up) synchronization (or not) among the DAC channels, even if the strict synchronization (drift correction) could be achieved afterwards,
2. clock synchronization = drift correction among the multiple DAC channels after starting/triggering playback of a music track.

BTW, I use 8-Ch-sync DAC OKTO DAC8PRO, with which, of course, I have no trigger lag nor sync-drift issue among the 8-channel (ref. #1,022 on my project thread).

My recent post here #389 and here #393 would be also of your reference and interest, I assume.

For the latest system setup of my multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier full-active audio system (5-way, 10-channel), please refer to #931 and #1,009 on my project thread.

 

[Adahn]

It would not be always so, unfortunately, if you use two independent DAC units of different brand each has its own ASIO driver.
I rather intensively tested/evaluated "the trigger lag issue" even with VB-AUDIO MATRIX 1.0.2.5; please refer to my post #1,021 on my project thread.

I believe we should clearly separate the two points/issues in this regard of multiple-channel DAC processing;
1. trigger (kick-off/start-up) synchronization (or not) among the DAC channels, even if the strict synchronization (drift correction) could be achieved afterwards,
2. clock synchronization = drift correction among the multiple DAC channels after starting/triggering playback of a music track.

BTW, I use 8-Ch-sync DAC OKTO DAC8PRO, with which, of course, I have no trigger lag nor sync-drift issue among the 8-channel (ref. #1,022 on my project thread).

My recent post here #389 and here #393 would be also of your reference and interest, I assume.

For the latest system setup of my multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier full-active audio system (5-way, 10-channel), please refer to #931 and #1,009 on my project thread.

Interesting observations. Hadn't seen your post.

I haven't noticed any timing issues whether using an rme interface or the internal clock as master. There's obviously a delay of a few ms between the various speakers that can be attributed to each interface's dac speed and physical placement of speakers, but that's taken care of with individually set delays for each speaker in whatever room correction software you'd use anyway.

Here's a test with mixed device types and buffers, all working with no observable issues. One virtual asio device is used as a windows sink. Takes 8 audio channels from windows and loops them back to the input of the second virtual asio device. The second device has a vst host attached to it for eq and downmixing to 4.1.

 

[magreen]

To do bass management you first need to create an aggregate audio device that combines the two physical interfaces you want to use. VBaudio's Matrix can do that.
You could use that audio device directly with EAPO and call it a day.

I know their ui is not exactly user friendly, so don't hesitate asking if you find any trouble.

So I'm trying to figure out VB-Audio Matrix now, to make an aggregate audio device as you suggest. Is a Virtual Audio I/O (VAIO) slot what I want? And then do I map its channels 1 and 2 outputs to the DDC, and map its channels 3 & 4 outputs to the Realtek device?

Do I then need to map the VAIO's inputs to anything, such as a 2-channel input device, and then that 2-channel input device is what I would select as my playback device in Tidal? Or perhaps set its input channel 1 to be doubled to input channel 3, and input channel 2 to double to input channel 4?

Sorry for all the questions!

 

[Adahn]

So I'm trying to figure out VB-Audio Matrix now, to make an aggregate audio device as you suggest. Is a Virtual Audio I/O (VAIO) slot what I want? And then do I map its channels 1 and 2 outputs to the DDC, and map its channels 3 & 4 outputs to the Realtek device?

Do I then need to map the VAIO's inputs to anything, such as a 2-channel input device, and then that 2-channel input device is what I would select as my playback device in Tidal? Or perhaps set its input channel 1 to be doubled to input channel 3, and input channel 2 to double to input channel 4?

Sorry for all the questions!

Right. First enable the asio device named clock towards the top left. That's gonna be your master clocking device. You can adjust its buffer in the settings menu if you wish.
Then assign your physical interfaces to either asio (ASIO64A, ASIO64B etc) if drivers are available, or wdm devices. (WIN1.OUT, WIN2.OUT) etc. See the screenshot above if unclear. Buffers for asio devices are set in their respective control panels. For wdm devices you can set buffers in matrix's settings menu.

Then you open the routing matrix and do your routing. Left side shows what's playing, top side is where you're sending it. Locate the correct square for each channel and set it to 0dB or whatever you want to do.

Finally, set the device you created as the default device for windows, install eapo on it and you're done. This is the simple setup. Make that work first and then you can look into more advanced stuff if needed.

 

[magreen]

Hmmm. I'm trying to set it up, and it's showing input into my VAIO, but I'm not hearing any output. Screenshots below. Can you tell me what I'm doing wrong?

Also, it grabbed exclusive control of my two devices, and now Tidal can't output to them.

EDIT: Wait, I think I got it! I needed to use VAIO2 instead of VAIO1 (From the manual, I think VAIO1 is only available in the Coconut version perhaps?)

 

[Adahn]

Yes, it takes exclusive control of any wdm devices you give it. To retain the device, you'd need a multi-client asio interface. RME's asio drivers can do that.

As for nothing playing, maybe it just needed an engine restart. There's an option for that at the top of the menu. It's handy from time to time. Or it might be a limitation of the version you're using as you said. Not sure, never used the smaller version.

 

[magreen]

Finally, set the device you created as the default device for windows, install eapo on it and you're done. This is the simple setup. Make that work first and then you can look into more advanced stuff if needed.

OK, I have it doubling the output to both devices, by routing VAIO input 1 through output 1 of both devices, and routing VAIO input 2 through output 2 of both devices. Screenshot below.

I also installed EAPO to it. The trouble now is how to EQ each device separately? Any filters I apply in EAPO to left channel applies to the left channels of both devices.

Edit: EAPO shows channels L, R, RL, and RR. But the trouble is that both devices respond to filters on channels L and R; and neither device responds to channels RL and RR.

 

[Adahn]

Multiple ways of tackling this.

To do it with eapo, the device needs to have more than 2 channels in windows, so you need to set it as a 5.1 with surrounds and center missing in the windows control panel.
Then you can route audio to the subwoofer channel using eapo.

Once you have a sub channel available in eapo, you simply do something along these lines:

Copy: VSUB=L+R
Channel: VSUB
Filter: ON LP Fc 80 Hz
Copy: LFE=LFE+-10dB*VSUB
Channel: L R
Filter: ON HP Fc 80 Hz

How exactly you do the bass management is a highly debatable subject that depends on how you've set up the gain on your sub and the level of the actual lfe channel in the content you're playing.

With that set, you then do a straight 1:1 routing in matrix, sending each channel to its respective hardware out.