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Wilson Audio TuneTot Review (high-end bookshelf speaker)

Rate this speaker:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 364 58.8%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 186 30.0%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 44 7.1%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 25 4.0%

  • Total voters
    619

MerlinGS

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I want to rephrase what Im trying to bring up so many times already :

What we have here is a bad measuring speaker which sounds good...

I don't want to go that easy route. I think there is something else into play here.
Our framework said we need flat FR and sloped directivity with no bumps to get a good sounding speaker. (and to make it clear I don't question the correctness of those guidelines. They ARE correct.)

But what does that mean? For me it means that at listening position we receive direct and indirect sound.
To be able to get good sound, they (direct+indirect) need to be flat/smooth with no bumps. So we hear an even sound.
At various times you have stated that you want to understand why some listeners enjoy the WATT despite its clear measured flaws. Many posters have explained why your presumptions were incorrect, but somehow you keep coming back to them and seem to want to attribute some genius to WA engineers that are not supported by any facts in evidence. Remember, if you are going to make such a claim, at the very least you need to have some objective supporting evidence to validate your claim. Let's go over some facts:

Amir did not state the speakers were good without eq
Amir did not state that even with eq, the tonality of the WATT was superior or equal to any number of far cheaper and better measuring speakers.

Amir did express a preference for the eq'd WATT against a very good measuring and 1/5 the cost Revel.
Amir stated that he preferred the highs and bass of the eq'd WATT.

Any reasonable assumptions of preference of this speaker over the WATT would require a blind test, and preferably using trained evaluators
Dr. Toole's research tells him that evaluators should be young (20-40s?). Dr Toole, stoped participating in evaluations yrs ago despite being a VERY experienced tester because he considers his hearing flawed due to age.

Amir is in his 60's, his high frequency hearing is surely compromised. Is it reliable to 13KHz, 15KHz? I have no idea, but I certainly would not assume his hearing is discerning enough to evaluate speakers above 14KHz. His preference for the highs in the WATT could quite easily be related to limitations in his hearing at high frequencies (i.e. exaggerated highs will give a better sense of detail as opposed to a feeling of being exaggerated)

Lastly, Amir like many listeners has expressed a liking for speakers that exhibit better dynamic range. The WATT has decent distortion figures and has a better dynamic range than the Revel's UT. A preference for dynamic range explains Amir's preference of the WATT over the Revel's far better than any of the magical explanations you seem to be seeking. A more interesting comparison would likely have been with the JBL 4349. It is a larger (and uglier for some) speaker than the WATT, but the latter cost at least 33% more. It is also flawed from some metrics' perspectives, but they exhibit excellent dynamic range.

Here are Amir's impressions of the 4349:

"Beyond the bass the impression of the two speakers was so different. The salon 2 was producing a smooth, highly integrated sound column. The 4349 seemed to have a dual character where it would be come extremely lively with high frequency dynamics. This was super pleasurable but less refined than Salon 2's reserved but excellent reproduction. My thought during the whole affair was that you really wanted both of these speakers and use them based on mood and music.
This is one of few good sounding speakers that don't have the "Revel sound" to me. It is a different way of solving the same problem...
I hardly ever come home from a show thinking of replacing my speakers with anything I see there. The only exception was a set of large horn speakers that had dynamics that I could not replicate with my Salon 2s. The 4349 allowed me to get there and so points to high efficiency mattering. People routinely underestimate how much power it takes to reproduce dynamics well. Even my high power amplifier struggles to push the Salon 2 there. But with 4349, that struggle disappeared with a bunch of headroom left."

Nothing about the measurements suggests anything magical about the design of the WATT (or that it has elevated audio engineering in any fashion). The preferences expressed by Amir and DWI are easily explained without resorting to pretzel logic. Occam's razor clearly applies here unless there is some significant evidence to suggest otherwise.

Although I don't share DWI's view of WA, I find some posters attributions to him (e.g. intent, taste, faculties to make decisions [i.e. you gotta be a moron to choose the WATT over my preferred 1K speaker] extremely presumptuous, unfair (they have nowhere near the facts necessary to make any judgments about him or his choices), and quasi psychotic (i.e. if you don't see the world as I do, and judge as I do, then you are found wanting in a very substantial way).

Well, I am pretty sure I have offended a few already, so perhaps this is a good time to stop. Happy New Year.
 

Crosstalk

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Yes, then how to weigh different aspects?
Do yo have no rating system of your own?
I have mine, that's not science anyway.
Why anyone need to follow one rating score? What does it come from? By analyzing brains? Brain scan or something? ha.
I don't against statistics that can predict the speaker performance to some extent, that's fine.
I'm just more open to the exception.
Mind to explain your non science based rating system ?
 

heflys20

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At various times you have stated that you want to understand why some listeners enjoy the WATT despite its clear measured flaws. Many posters have explained why your presumptions were incorrect, but somehow you keep coming back to them and seem to want to attribute some genius to WA engineers that are not supported by any facts in evidence. Remember, if you are going to make such a claim, at the very least you need to have some objective supporting evidence to validate your claim.

I'm more surprised people keep responding. LOL.
 

watchnerd

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Any reasonable assumptions of preference of this speaker over the WATT would require a blind test, and preferably using trained evaluators
Dr. Toole's research tells him that evaluators should be young (20-40s?). Dr Toole, stoped participating in evaluations yrs ago despite being a VERY experienced tester because he considers his hearing flawed due to age.

This is seldom discussed and unexplored territory.

How should one select speakers or headphones when (nearly inevitable) age-related hearing loss kicks in?

I'm 51 and last time I got tested, things get pretty dicey for me above 10k, and I know it will only get worse.
 

thewas

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This is seldom discussed and unexplored territory.

How should one select speakers or headphones when (nearly inevitable) age-related hearing loss kicks in?

I'm 51 and last time I got tested, things get pretty dicey for me above 10k, and I know it will only get worse.
Very true, chapter 17 of the last edition of Tooles book is dedicated to hearing loss, https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...iew-powered-monitor.28039/page-59#post-987547

EDIT:
Let’s try to remain focused on the Speaker reviewed and the test results. Please and thank you!
Sorry, typing of above reply coincided with your post.
 

DSJR

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I had the 40th anniversary because they came in walnut, for a walnut room, all of which has now gone to woody heaven. Being a scientific website, so I'm told, I can describe Wilson Sabrina as Harbeth SHL5+ 40th AE with more top and bottom end and better imaging, but much the same tonality including that gorgeous midrange that seems to make most music effortless (except, I presume, heavy metal). When I die and am reincarnated as a visually impaired Goth I'll consider Genelec, but not before then. Wilson make me realise how "safe" Harbeth are, but in a good way, and both are undemanding on amplification, unlike Focal, which really needed more horsepower than I have on hand.

If I get some illness or disease that gives me incurable shakes such that I can't operate a turntable, then I might go active + Alexa. I already have Alexa active throughout the house from speakers that are 40hz (-6db) to 25khz and the size of a 1lb jam jar. Rather than support poor struggling engineers as suggested by @Crosstalk, the speaker was designed by a chap who was Chief Engineer of B&W for two decades, before founding Vivid Audio. As I mentioned pages ago, I expect the system soon to go multi-channel with Dolby Atmos. I have high hopes for Dolby Atmos as cinema has driven so much sound technology, starting with stereo in the 1930s, and it is ideal for headphones and automotive audio, which is where the money is.
More top and bottom than an SHL5+ means a loudness switch balance I fear. My SHL5's have more subjective bass than the Plus and that's more to do with damping (physical and possibly electrical) than just the amount of bass - mine thunder in this room. The top on SHL5+ should be pretty accurate to what's coming in to them and any more is a suspect thing I feel. Stereophile tested the 5+ and didn't find the on-axis response wanting (the 120Hz bump-up is a Stereophile thing and all neutral balanced speakers they test do this). The dispersion at the crossover region is a little awry I gather by modern standards and this is where the room will decide.

I still feel the speaker should be as benign as possible and without character to add to the variables when listening and it's great with this site that some experienced experts in various fields are here to help and advise where possible. For me anyway, I really don't want the speakers to tell me how to listen or what to listen to (do as I say, not as I currently do). I found happiness with ATC's but unsure if I can ever afford to go back that way, the prices being so high these days.
 

Crosstalk

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More top and bottom than an SHL5+ means a loudness switch balance I fear. My SHL5's have more subjective bass than the Plus and that's more to do with damping (physical and possibly electrical) than just the amount of bass - mine thunder in this room. The top on SHL5+ should be pretty accurate to what's coming in to them and any more is a suspect thing I feel. Stereophile tested the 5+ and didn't find the on-axis response wanting (the 120Hz bump-up is a Stereophile thing and all neutral balanced speakers they test do this). The dispersion at the crossover region is a little awry I gather by modern standards and this is where the room will decide.

I still feel the speaker should be as benign as possible and without character to add to the variables when listening and it's great with this site that some experienced experts in various fields are here to help and advise where possible. For me anyway, I really don't want the speakers to tell me how to listen or what to listen to (do as I say, not as I currently do). I found happiness with ATC's but unsure if I can ever afford to go back that way, the prices being so high these days.
So does that mean the canton reference 7k’s measurements are wrong ?
 

DSJR

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Where are the Canton measurements as reference please?
 

Crosstalk

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Where are the Canton measurements as reference please?
I feel this is another speaker which has a similar bass hump and is rated very high by many German review magazines but except that bump that speaker is quite linear.
 
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beagleman

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So the differences all comes from the beginning.
I can play almost any lousy recordings on my systems.
My criterion for speakers is simple, it need to be played very loud and can endure all the bass thumping recordings.
Then all the cheap speakers with typical distortion and enclosure resonance are out of my sight.
No tiny speakers even Genelec or Neumann, maybe I could like the largest ones.
So what's about the science? I know what parameters I need to care about and that's all.
Is there any rewarding to train myself to be an expert that loving high scored flat-response small speakers?
Because that can change my thinking to be more scientific? No, thanks.
That's interesting.

Your comments, have me curious, as to what age you are?
 

beagleman

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I feel this is another speaker which has a similar bass hump and is rated very high by many German review magazines but except that bump that speaker is quite linear.
I have a speaker that Stereophile reviewed. They show a good 3db bass boost in the same area, but at home I hear NO bass boost at all in that area.

I think they mention that about 3-4 db of that boost is built into how they measure, and not really part of the speakers real sound.
 

DSJR

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from some years of looking at Stereophile plots (and reading the testers comments about it), I'd echo the post above that 3 - 4dB of the bass humps in all their measurements are induced by the technique they use. Any speakers measuring 'flat' down there is actually down in reality in the 100hz region.
 

Mojo Warrior

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Amir's reviews puts the TuneTot in the same league as the Amazon Basics 80W and both get a recommendation based upon subjective listening !

$50 vs $10,000 !


To quote Amir:
Once there, a major feature of this speaker took front and center: powerful amplification together with good driver bass response meant that in near-field listening I had all the volume I wanted. This is far in excess of many studio/powered monitors can handle. There simply is no signal of distortion as you crank up the volume and are greeted with good bass to boot. There is no sub-bass to speak of but what is there is not badly distorted.

I can't emphasize the above enough. I can't use vast majority of small monitors because it is so easy to get them to crackle due to lack of amplification power. This speaker uses a single more powerful amplifier instead of splitting the budget into two lower power one. On the face of it we would think that an active crossover with dual amps is better but not when it comes at the cost of limited power. I am able to fix many of the flaws with software EQ anyway.

And oh, the large size of this box means that it portrays a much larger image than small monitors.

Once I had the EQ dialed in, I was enjoying and marveling at the fidelity of this "flawed" speaker! On my audiophile tracks it played them with nuances that I reserve for very well executed and high-end speakers.

Note that I tested the unit in near-field setting.

Conclusions
Objectively, the Amazon Basics 80W makes many classical mistakes which make you want to throw up. Fortunately many of the mistakes manifest themselves in resonances that are fixable by reducing level and thereby lowering distortion. In this regard, equalization works powerfully letting the ample dynamic range of this speaker to show off and differentiate itself from the competition. For the $50 price I paid, it is the steal of the century with EQ. Even without, if you are not bothered by somewhat bright personality (which is offset nicely by unusually flat bass response).

Overall, I am going to happily recommend the Amazon Basics 80W with equalization.
 
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Spkrdctr

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My 708P's definitely look their best when behind the screen.

When it comes time for speakers I'll have to look at, the Harman score won't be the most important thing.
Yes! The Harmon curve lacks bass in my opinion. I want headphones with serious deep bass that vibrates the eardrums. In speakers I have a subwoofer that will do the job. The let down for me is that I can't find any headphones that everyone would say "that's way too much bass" as I would buy them and love them! I guess none are made. So I say phooey on every day headphone use.
 

MerlinGS

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I don't know what is getting more reviewed, Wilson speaker or me! :)
This reminds me of an essay I read about 30 yrs ago. The author explained that a book review (or any form of review) may give you some insight into the object being reviewed, but just as importantly, it provided the audience with a lot of information about the reviewer; i.e. in essence any review was also a review of the author. Some of the better post-modern analysis (yes, there is a lot of poor writing, but also a lot of very good work) of both social and natural sciences explains how the researcher in many ways is part of the research.

In this case, I'd say is neck and neck :) ... tie goes to the...

Again, thanks for all your valuable work. It is a pleasure to visit this site.
 

zeppzeppzepp

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Your comments, have me curious, as to what age you are?

Ha, I grew up when glam metal was still hot and played electric guitar for almost 30yrs.......
By the way, I actually didn't listen to much rock music for years.
I listen to symphonies, bebop and even Japanese animate songs (dominated the brightest broken sounds in the world....ha) more these days.
 
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