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Wilson Audio TuneTot Review (high-end bookshelf speaker)

Rate this speaker:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 363 58.7%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 186 30.1%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 44 7.1%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 25 4.0%

  • Total voters
    618

thewas

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For most of that visit my wife was next door buying a dress, but she sat down and listened to some music of her choice - for about 10 minutes. So we bought the speakers and went to lunch - Japanese fusion.
Impressive!

Some people really struggle with the idea that for other people money is not an issue and really are not interested what something costs.
The question is why these people who don't care about value of a product still hang around in such "cheapskaters places" to convince them about their choice and get some confirmation?
 
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zeppzeppzepp

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My takeaway from these experiments has been that modern instruments can equal or outperform those of the cremonese masters. Value of instruments is based primarily on authenticity and collectability, followed by build quality, with playability and sound quality the final factors.

Here is a video of Yehudi Menuhin and another violinist playing what would become the most expensive instrument auctioned at the time (a well preserved Stradivarius). They both look pretty non plussed.

This is all to say that while I value Amir's sighted impressions, it's not surprising that the more visually imposing Tune Tot would end up sounding larger than the M106. Or that a 5db peak at 115hz would give a stronger impression of tactile midbass (even though the Tune Tot has very little actual bass response)

Some can be the real science, but some can not.
What acoustic instrument qualities attracted the listeners is not that obvious.
People can say they have different tastes, but what leads to the tastes?
When people can be educated with a specific method from starting, that specific method can be generally becomes a rule.
People grew up with the small LS3/5A wouldn't and never feel any problem for the mid-bass boost and lacking real bass at the same time.
Same with the instruments, if you are not familiar with and settle on a specific sound, it's less obvious to judge what is good or not unless there are broken qualities.
Some qualities can be more generally agreed, but some are not.
This is the origin of the arguing.
Does anyone know your judgment for sound is coming from your DNA or the educated illusion?
Accept both and admit to include the very restricted parameters to call it science.
 

DWI

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Impressive!


The question is why these people who don't care about value of a product still hang around in such "cheapskaters places" to convince them about their choice and get some confirmation?
It’s interesting that Amir reviewed this product because it addresses consumer values other than price or value for money.

There seem to be plenty of people who see value in this type of product, and the point I make is that it is not just marketing hype or brand aspiration as some people think. It’s just different values.

My take on money for consumer goods is a bit like restaurants. We only go to restaurants we can afford, and I very rarely if ever look at the bill and always pay the service. Normally my wife pays. If we don’t like it, we just don’t go again. I know wealthy people who would check every item. I don’t like being ripped off as much as the next person, we just refurbished a house and got trade accounts for everything, saving a fortune. I buy audio new and ex-demo like we go to restaurants. only look at audio we can afford, so the price then becomes irrelevant.

This may be normal retail consumer behaviour, whether the budget is $1k or $1m. What I would never do is buy a luxury item like audio on credit.
 

Mart68

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There is certainly some truth in what you say. Still it intrigues me that Amir likes the sound of it even it didn't measure well. There is some mismatch then if the "theory" is written in stone.
but it can also be :
- Speakers interact strong with the room. I guess many nowadays have much more reflective rooms then 20-30y ago. Maybe this causes the different perception?

- Someone pointed to the interaction between wide dispersion and the wobbly directivity. Is it taken into account of the 'quotation' of the speaker? Score of 2.3 ??? Maybe one need to fiddle with how the score is "manufactured"?

Just some thoughts. Surely there isn't any groundbreaking discovery to do, but finetuning and evolving is still possible
These speakers do not measure perfectly but few speakers do. They measure reasonably well, they are far from the disaster that some people here are making them out to be.

A speaker does not have to measure perfectly to sound good to most people on most programme types. 30 odd years ago I built some two way speakers using what were at the time quite expensive and very good drivers. I built them to learn about speaker and crossover design but to start I just dropped in an off the shelf 4th order crossover.

This was before the internet so box dimensions were calculated by hand literally on the back of an envelope.

Despite this the speakers sounded good and this was agreed by all who heard them, both enthusiasts and civilians, to the extent that someone commissioned me to build them a pair.

I have no idea how the speakers measured but I would put money on it that they would be considerably worse than these Wilsons. A speaker has to be pretty bad before most people will say 'these sound terrible.' The Wilsons are nowhere near that point.

I don't agree with your suggestion that there is still evolving to do. There are so many speaker companies either gone or still existing that every rabbit hole has been gone down multiple times. Cost is really the only barrier to perfect performance and as we can see from the professional speakers tested here such as the Genelecs, measured perfection is attainable and for less than £10K.

Once you have perfection there is nowhere left to go. Although from some comments here it's clear that Genelec would open up a new market if they produced a 'domestic version' with better aesthetics. Personally I like the appearance of the Genelecs as they are and if I wasn't already happy with what I have I would by a pair with little hesitation.
 

Pearljam5000

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We've all been wrong, apparently it's "the best"
Screenshot_20211225-115829.jpg
 

thewas

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It’s interesting that Amir reviewed this product because it addresses consumer values other than price or value for money.

There seem to be plenty of people who see value in this type of product, and the point I make is that it is not just marketing hype or brand aspiration as some people think. It’s just different values.
I wouldn't be so sure there, at least for a big part of their buyers who are audiophiles and think by buying something as expensive and hyped they get quite higher technical and auditory performance then buying something of a lower price class.
 

DWI

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Some can be the real science, but some can not.
What acoustic instrument qualities attracted the listeners is not that obvious.
People can say they have different tastes, but what leads to the tastes?
When people can be educated with a specific method from starting, that specific method can be generally becomes a rule.
People grew up with the small LS3/5A wouldn't and never feel any problem for the mid-bass boost and lacking real bass at the same time.
Same with the instruments, if you are not familiar with and settle on a specific sound, it's less obvious to judge what is good or not unless there are broken qualities.
Some qualities can be more generally agreed, but some are not.
This is the origin of the arguing.
Does anyone know your judgment for sound is coming from your DNA or the educated illusion?
Accept both and admit to include the very restricted parameters to call it science.
Studio monitors are required to produce accurate studio recordings. What people do with those recordings is really a personal decision. The same applies to live music. There is no law against playing the Brahms piano concertos in a multi-storey car park. the score does not say “only to be played in a top concert hall”.
 

DWI

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I wouldn't be so sure there, at least for a big part of their buyers who are audiophiles and think by buying something as expensive and hyped they get quite higher technical and auditory performance then buying something of a lower price class.
Where do you get this customer profile data?
 

thewas

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Where do you get this customer profile data?
I know quite few audiophiles buying such expensive stuff and are all about performance if you ask them. There are few wealthy who don't care about performance but design, but those don't buy speakers like Wilson but rather like B&O (which funnily also perform better).
 

MrHifiTunes

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Design details? Most of that is marketing gibberish designed to sell speakers. As to why I think they're not, the evidence is abundant. If the speaker can't even measure properly in a free-field environment, how the heck do they expect it to measure 65-25khz +/- 3db in the average room? I keep asking: Are they incompetent, or did they do this intentionally? Which is it? You can't argue that they're competent when the speaker measures poorly.

The owners probably tell their engineers what they want, and keep asking them to make adjustments until they're satisfied with sound. Something that stands out. Something that will sell.

I'm not sure why this is difficult to conceive, unless you're arguing that they really aren't that good at engineering speakers.
Design details like offering tweeter level adjustment resistors is marketing gibberish?
slanted baffle is marketing gibberish?
felt around the tweeter is marketing gibberish?
spikes to isolate the speaker is marketing gibberish?
solid baseplate is marketing gibberish?
wobbly on and off axis FR but linear in room response is marketing gibberish?
foam bass port plug is marketing gibberish?

If you make a whole in a box like this one you expect it to have a bump at 115Hz. Is it a fault if it do that when you expected it? It is a design goal. Will it be my design goal...no way, because I want to use the speaker differently. Most likely they choose this option as a best compromise for them when listening low and very low levels. It is a trade-off choice.
Same with the wobbly on and off axis and wide dispersion which give a dynamic and open sound. Probably what their customers were looking for.

I assume when listening to lower volumes a bumped up bass is preferred by many. And probably the lower the volume the higher up in FR the bump has effect. None of those bass curves are seeking accurate response, but finding the balance for listening enjoyment.

For those who dont want to use it in that way, they offer a foam plug to make it act as a closed box design and hence a response from 65Hz onwards. And you expect it to sound like the curve below. But it appeared that it doesnt measure like that. This I would call a fault. leakage?
index.php


I think we just don't get the concept that a 10k speaker is designed for playing some low level and background music. It's important to know the design goals before one can make a judgement.
 

MrHifiTunes

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I don't agree with your suggestion that there is still evolving to do. There are so many speaker companies either gone or still existing that every rabbit hole has been gone down multiple times. Cost is really the only barrier to perfect performance and as we can see from the professional speakers tested here such as the Genelecs, measured perfection is attainable and for less than £10K.

Once you have perfection there is nowhere left to go. Although from some comments here it's clear that Genelec would open up a new market if they produced a 'domestic version' with better aesthetics. Personally I like the appearance of the Genelecs as they are and if I wasn't already happy with what I have I would by a pair with little hesitation.
Like i said I don't expect groundbreaking revolution. What intrigues me on this design is the wobbly on and off axis response but still a linear in room response. It's a different approach then the "testbook". Also the scoring given to speakers performance can be improved I guess. Maybe weighing the in-room response higher in the endscore?

Why the wrinkle at 1K2 and 2k8 are called resonances? Looking at the individual drivers they probably have a notch filter there. Phase and magintude have a wrinkle at the same Frequencies. Isnt a notch "good design"? Is this audible?
index.php

index.php
 

RobL

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@amirm has mentioned that he sometimes contacts manufacturers before reviews are posted.
Have you had any contact with Wilson audio, Amir?
 

Purité Audio

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Crappy measurements, nicely finished enclosure!
Merry Christmas everyone.
Keith
 

DSJR

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These speakers do not measure perfectly but few speakers do. They measure reasonably well, they are far from the disaster that some people here are making them out to be.
Merry Christmas Mart and to all...

I don't think +/-10dB response errors in this model can be in the slightest bit excused today, sorry. Even Linn Kans weren't in such error (they rose in a straight line 11dB from 90 to 1.5kHz, the tweeter doing it's own thing at around the 500Hz level as some passive AVI models also did in a grotesque NS10 style). I do remember one of the many ProAc Tablette models doing something similar (8SE or something??) with a deep upper mid V shaped dip, but that was again deliberate to throw the midrange image right back behind the plane of the speakers, something that was a ProAc 'thing' in many models.

These days with REW with Umik and so on, there's really no excuses for a sh*t response like this, as the excesses could be tuned out I'm sure if they wanted to (giving Wilson the benefit of the doubt) and with a known reference, it wouldn't be too difficult to tweak a crossover by ear alone - I did it once decades ago rebuilding a prototype Celef (sister business to ProAc and same designer) three way speaker which had most of the crossover removed - to make it sound better - and the designer couldn't remember what the component values were and could only offer hints. Using white and pink noise and a known reference with a slightly 'scooped' response as reference (B&W 500 series it was back in the day), they came out well and served me for a while before I moved on.
 

KSTR

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Why the wrinkle at 1K2 and 2k8 are called resonances?
Notch filters in passive speakers can have an impact on overall impedance curve as well, you raise a good point here. A wrinkle seen in the total impedance plot does not necessarily come from a true resonance of the driver proper.

Wrinkles seen in the impedance plot (of the naked driver) are usually indicative of cone resonances or standing wave reflection in the cabinet but to know exactly you'd best use laser inferiometry, measuring the cone vibration directly.

Impedance measurement of total speaker can be used but then it is better to look at its impulse response display directly (preferably at the IR's of its distortion components as well).

At any rate, IME it is not enough to look at the impedance plot to call out a resonance.

-----------------------

And then we have this:
index.php

To really know if there is diffraction you have to look at the time domain. Preferably by comparing response with the one obtained with a make-shift extension of the baffle.

The shown plot is quite misleading because it uses wrong normalization to on-axis response, rather than to a reasonable average over a listening window. One of the main reasons coaxials measure "badly", btw.
 

orangejello

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thought I would like but didn't, and the Wilson we listened to in the store. For most of that visit my wife was next door buying a dress,

So my experience as a customer is that they make speakers that look good, sound good, suit our home and are retailed very professionally. People go into shops and buy them, like we did. It's not very complicated.
Sorry dude but your condescension is getting a bit old. You just walked into a shop and picked out some speakers with your wife that cost 10’s of thousands of dollars like most of us would pick out a coffee pot. In the alternative universe which is the rest of the USA, 40% of the population could not cover a $400 sudden expense. So while it may not be very complicated for you, economic life is extremely complicated for the vast majority of people in this country. It probably bears mentioning that there are many worthy souls in that 40%. Your boasting is very transparent.
 

orangejello

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This may be normal retail consumer behaviour, whether the budget is $1k or $1m. What I would never do is buy a luxury item like audio on credit.
Since you seem totally oblivious, it might be important to point out to you out that you sound just like Thurston Howell III of Gilligan’s Island fame. Also thanks for letting us know that you paid cash for your Wilson’s. Wow, impressive.
 
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heflys20

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Design details like offering tweeter level adjustment resistors is marketing gibberish?
slanted baffle is marketing gibberish?
felt around the tweeter is marketing gibberish?
spikes to isolate the speaker is marketing gibberish?
solid baseplate is marketing gibberish?
wobbly on and off axis FR but linear in room response is marketing gibberish?
foam bass port plug is marketing gibberish?
Obviously it's gibberish, since the speaker is mediocre. Especially for 10k.

If you make a whole in a box like this one you expect it to have a bump at 115Hz. Is it a fault if it do that when you expected it? It is a design goal. Will it be my design goal...no way, because I want to use the speaker differently. Most likely they choose this option as a best compromise for them when listening low and very low levels. It is a trade-off choice.
Same with the wobbly on and off axis and wide dispersion which give a dynamic and open sound. Probably what their customers were looking for.
I assume when listening to lower volumes a bumped up bass is preferred by many. And probably the lower the volume the higher up in FR the bump has effect. None of those bass curves are seeking accurate response, but finding the balance for listening enjoyment.



You keep insisting that this choice of design was done for competent reasons, and not for attention seeking purposes. I'm not sure why you're intent on finding ways to justify this overpriced, pathetic design. I'm done. Merry Christmas.
 
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MrHifiTunes

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Obviously it's gibberish, since the speaker is mediocre. Especially for 10k.






You keep insisting that this choice of design was done for competent reasons, and not for attention seeking purposes. I'm not sure why you're intent on finding ways to justify this overpriced, pathetic design. I'm done. Merry Christmas.
Quiet a populist answer without going into detail and give some deeper inside.
I capture more : " Those high end brands are a real rip-off and I know enough" attitude.

We don't need to agree...you have your reason I have mine. We both are guessing anyway...

Did you ever watch the movie 12 angry men? Maybe a good suggestion for the holiday season.
 
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