Will having an external DAC on my x2400h will improve SQ for music?

[Wolf69]

Hi,

so i read a lot of things since i upgraded my speakers to audio monitor silver.
i was looking at the jungle that is hifi and got a lot of new knowledge and on the mess that is lossless, specifically on apple ecosystem.

Anyway my config is a denon x2400h+AM silver range speakers, my sources are ios devices (iphone and ipad pro usb c) and a shield tv with apple music sideloaded to play lossless.

so first i don’t have a great ear, not sure i see a difference between music played via airplay on my denon and the lossless from my shield tv.

However i tried a mojo chord with a sony walkman and lossless music and the stage was more dynamic and open with better separation, so i was looking for the same feeling for a budget price.
I saw the topping range d10s/E30 and wanted to know if i would ear a difference compared to my x2400h? Compared to a x3700h (my future avr)? Or compared to an apple 10€ Dac usb c cable to jack?
the topping dac would be wired first but hoping that apple will release a new airplay version by the end of the year and i’ll buy a hardware with this functionnality to plug it to the topping to have lossless functionnality from my iphone/ipad.

thank you.

 

[keepthingsclean]

I think this depends on whether you can run the DAC output directly into your speakers.

Depending on the setup the AVR will take the analog signal from the DAC, redigitize it to process it internally before it will again leave towards the amplifier. So potentially your signal is converted twice, which makes the result rather a gamble than a prediction.

Or were you (and can you) bypassing all effects etc on the AVR to get the Mojo Chord sounding great?

 

[Wolf69]

On denon rhere is a bypass mode named « pure direct » allowing to bypass all electronics.

but will a topping have a really better performance than the denon dac?

 

[hmt]

Hi,

so i read a lot of things since i upgraded my speakers to audio monitor silver.
i was looking at the jungle that is hifi and got a lot of new knowledge and on the mess that is lossless, specifically on apple ecosystem.

Anyway my config is a denon x2400h+AM silver range speakers, my sources are ios devices (iphone and ipad pro usb c) and a shield tv with apple music sideloaded to play lossless.

so first i don’t have a great ear, not sure i see a difference between music played via airplay on my denon and the lossless from my shield tv.

However i tried a mojo chord with a sony walkman and lossless music and the stage was more dynamic and open with better separation, so i was looking for the same feeling for a budget price.
I saw the topping range d10s/E30 and wanted to know if i would ear a difference compared to my x2400h? Compared to a x3700h (my future avr)? Or compared to an apple 10€ Dac usb c cable to jack?
the topping dac would be wired first but hoping that apple will release a new airplay version by the end of the year and i’ll buy a hardware with this functionnality to plug it to the topping to have lossless functionnality from my iphone/ipad.

thank you.

No. Get better speakers and imörove your room accoustics instead.

 

[FrantzM]

No

 

[Wolf69]

Why people are buying dac to connect to their avr then?

 

[charleski]

Why people are buying dac to connect to their avr then?

Because it seems to offer a simple solution. Plugging in another box is easy, fixing room acoustics, speaker position and DSP isn't.

 

[FrantzM]

@Wolf69

Welcome to ASR. If you get past the jolt of having your beliefs turned around by Science and provable facts, you will enjoy more music and likely a better system for much less. it is a jolt, a lot of your audiophile beliefs will be , first challenged, then the humbling and unsettling part: crushed, destroyed.

It has been proven here than past 80 dB of SINAD all DACs sound the same to most people, when levels are matched. IOW same volume level and in most (s in 99.999% ) cases it is difficult, even impossible for a person to distinguish DAC 1 vs DAC 2... The Apple dongle (Lightning to headphones) at $11.00 sound the same and is provable that it is objectively better than a $15,000.00 audiophile DAC. Yes.
Thus the DAC in your Denon are perfectly adequate for your use case. No reason to spend a dime more...
Another, which may shock you. Level matched and blind, it is hard to distinguish lossless from good codec such as AAC at 256 , even mp3 at 320 kb/s is virtually transparent. if you stick around and peruse the site you will find links to tests... Do your self a favor and take some of those, you will see that when you conduct a blind test (not knowing which is playing) how many audiophile beliefs may disappear.
Not saying that under some special circumstances that there are absolutely no differences.. Whether you or another person are able to hear them is the story. Most people, even experienced audiophiles, cannot distinguish the better codecs from lossless.. As for High Resolution, stay away, they provide no benefits.

Stay around, your journey just started. I hope it becomes wonderful

Peace

 

[BDWoody]

Why people are buying dac to connect to their avr then?

Because people believe.

Here is an interesting thread that let's you see if you can hear the difference between a very well measuring DAC and a poor one.

DAC ABX Test Phase 1: Does a SOTA DAC sound the same as a budget DAC if proper controls are put in place? Spoiler: Probably yes. :)

This thread is meant to once and for all settle the age-old question on whether different non-broken DACs have a "sound" or if all DACs sound the same! :cool: ...just kidding - those debates will probably never end. :p Let me start by providing the link to the ABX test. Note: There are 16...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[peng]

Hi,

so i read a lot of things since i upgraded my speakers to audio monitor silver.
i was looking at the jungle that is hifi and got a lot of new knowledge and on the mess that is lossless, specifically on apple ecosystem.

Anyway my config is a denon x2400h+AM silver range speakers, my sources are ios devices (iphone and ipad pro usb c) and a shield tv with apple music sideloaded to play lossless.

so first i don’t have a great ear, not sure i see a difference between music played via airplay on my denon and the lossless from my shield tv.

However i tried a mojo chord with a sony walkman and lossless music and the stage was more dynamic and open with better separation, so i was looking for the same feeling for a budget price.
I saw the topping range d10s/E30 and wanted to know if i would ear a difference compared to my x2400h? Compared to a x3700h (my future avr)? Or compared to an apple 10€ Dac usb c cable to jack?
the topping dac would be wired first but hoping that apple will release a new airplay version by the end of the year and i’ll buy a hardware with this functionnality to plug it to the topping to have lossless functionnality from my iphone/ipad.

thank you.

I am sure you will get different opinions. In my opinion you may (may, because if depends on other factors too related to other components in your system, and your listening habits) hear a difference but only if you compare using the external DAC vs the internal one under the following conditions:

a) Use analog input of something like a Topping D30 that you mentioned, or a higher model with better specs, and
b) Use direct mode, and
c) Play high quality recording contents at bit depth and sampling frequency that the AVR cannot play without down sampling.

As others have already mentioned, if you use Audyssey then the signal must go through the internal ADC/DSP/DAC path when you use the analog output of the external DAC.

To me, the main advantage of using an external dac is, with the right one, you can play contents (such as DSD256 or higher) that happens to have excellent recording quality. If you can find the same recording on even the so called CD quality (16b/44.1 kHz), then it won't make a difference.

 

[Mnyb]

The saving crace of an AVR is to use its bass management and also its room correction .

So even if you could route an external DAC trough some direct mode , you can’t use your subwoofer or DRC . So it will be pointless

 

[FrantzM]

The saving crace of an AVR is to use its bass management and also its room correction .

So even if you could route an external DAC trough some direct mode , you can’t use your subwoofer or DRC . So it will be pointless

On a side note: AVR are the Rodney Dangerfield of the audiophile world. They get no respect Formidable machines, these are. I will have to write thread on this. An AVR with a good speaker management and Pre-out should be the control center of any audio or AV system be it 2 to 11 Channels... there are the Pre/Pros, but so far these aren't any better than the better AVRs... and of course there is the upper echelon inhabited by Trinnov and its (very few: 4? 5?) competitors...

People should keep in mind that the best phono system in the world cannot go over 70 dB of SINAD, something all but the worst DACs (and even then...) reviewed here pass easily ...

 

[Steve Dallas]

It will most likely make no difference. I have something like the setup you describe. I can listen to music through a Schiit Modius using my laptop running Dirac Live 3. I can also listen to music using HEOS as the player through my X4700H AVR, which leverages bass management and Audyssey. The same amplifier is used in both configurations.

I can hear the difference in room correction solutions. I can hear the addition of the subs as managed by the AVR. I cannot hear any other differences.

Plugging a "better" DAC into the AVR's analog input forces the signal to go through AD then DA, which defeats the purpose. Setting the AVR to Pure Direct mode avoids the extra AD and DA, but also turns off room correction, which is much more important than a few dB better SINAD, which makes that configuration a poor solution, IMHO.

 

[Wolf69]

Thanks for the detailled answer.

in short your are rather advicing me to get a umik and REW and optimising my system rather buying a new dac then?

 

[FrantzM]

Thanks for the detailled answer.

in short your are rather advicing me to get a umik and REW and optimising my system rather buying a new dac then?

Yes.

 

[Steve Dallas]

Thanks for the detailled answer.

in short your are rather advicing me to get a umik and REW and optimising my system rather buying a new dac then?

Absolutely. Achieving an in-room response improvement something like these is FAR more important than inserting an objectively better DAC.

I bought a pair of Modiuses during a brief period of chasing SINAD. I found that I cannot hear a difference between a Modius with ~114dB SINAD and my Nova300 with ~86dB SINAD and my AVR with ~76 or ~94dB SINAD (depending on the operational mode). They all sound perfectly transparent to me.

 

[Head_Unit]

in short your are rather advicing me to get a umik and REW and optimising my system rather buying a new dac then?

Yes. WARNING: this will become more addictive and frustrating than a crack cocaine habit, or gambling addiction. It's been nice knowing you, ha ha.
- Seriously I believe that unless you're incredibly lucky with your room and speaker and sub placement, good room correction and bass management trumps the small possible DAC differences (unless you're UNlucky enough to have an acoustic situation that freaks out the room correction).
- Elsewhere Amir has a thread where what I'll tell you from that is try coax and Toslink inputs still with room correction and bass management on. Those may have a lower noise floor-audible, maybe not.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/a-deep-dive-into-hdmi-audio-performance.56/

 

[GalZohar]

Thanks for the detailled answer.

in short your are rather advicing me to get a umik and REW and optimising my system rather buying a new dac then?

I would have said yes even if a new DAC had a proven audible advantage, you would probably still get more benefit by optimizing your existing system with umik and REW, which is also cheap relative to most audio upgrades..

 

[Wolf69]

I would have said yes even if a new DAC had a proven audible advantage, you would probably still get more benefit by optimizing your existing system with umik and REW, which is also cheap relative to most audio upgrades..

Thanks for all the feedback.

Regarding budget, it was within the same range (~100€).

For the addiction, i can already see that since i’m reading and watching a lot of information on REW and how to tweak the denon for better performances.

 

[iLoveCats]

I ran a topping D10s from my computer into a Denon 4400 for a long time and would do it again. A friend of mine runs a D10 into a Denon 3600 and can't tell, but I heard his first and thought everything tightened up so I bought one for myself.