Will consumers buy the Dutch & Dutch 8C?

[Kundroc]

The studio version does not support streaming over ethernet

 

[jae]

Still waiting to see that physical control knob. Maybe they should have made it a wireless remote?

 

[Frank Dernie]

Still waiting to see that physical control knob. Maybe they should have made it a wireless remote?

I require a rotary volume control which makes the Kii with remote attractive but it has teensy bass drivers and the BXT makes it too expensive.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I believe the two versions are identical apart from the cabinet material, colour and fixings for ‘u’ stands oh and price!
Keith

Understand the studio version cabinet is made from particle board rather than birch ply, will that affect the sound or just the cosmetics?

 

[Purité Audio]

Just cosmetics, Martijn wouldn’t compromise SQ especially in a ‘pro’ audio product.
Keith

 

[jae]

Dutch&dutch would be smart to make their own USB->AES conversion cable using something like an xmos chip in-line

 

[Purité Audio]

They are making their own ‘break-out’ box, which I hope will include, input selection, volume, mute Etc, that should be available in the not too distant future.
Keith

 

[laddie.music]

John, if you'd heard these things, you'd forget any opinions on component pricing etc... they are absolutely astonishing. They are the only speaker I've heard that sound absolutely mind bending in small mixing rooms, right up there next to our PMC's which are installed professionally at a price of over 50k, our room is also calibrated and cost a couple hundred k in construction.

In terms of ear candy they are amazing, but as a mixing engineer, the translation of these speakers is next to none, mix purely to taste and it translates perfectly. Hence why if you knew the engineer list now using them, Bob Katz and a whole slew of big dogs all over the USA,

They are way under priced for what we get, and with 8 years R&D ( I only know because of vintage king USA and the back story ) nothing... and I mean nothing comes close under 50k (and only if you have a room). these things work in ****** small rooms giving the listener ridiculous results without any treatment whatsoever.

I scoffed at them, so on my last LA visit I went to vintage king and boom... blew my mind literally.

I do wish they'd of used better components... but like they say, design is far more important at the end of the day over oil capacitors.

Prahlad Strickland

Bottom line is these all-in-one 'lifestyle solution speakers' are obscenely overpriced for their material content. Of course some will sell, and maybe enough to keep the company solvent just long enough to be able to service and supply the inevitable spare parts required at the 7-10 year mark, when stuff starts failing. Look at these boards. Component level repair is out. Replacement boards are the only option.

Let's be really generous and say there's $500 worth of components here:
View attachment 29951

And $500 for a woofer.
And $500 for a tweeter.
And $500 for a cabinet.
And another $500 for the back plate, connectors, box and instructions.

That's a ridiculously generous $2500. Let's give D&D 50% gross margin and the dealers the same. There's $10K. Trouble is, in Australia, they are:

View attachment 29952

What are they in the US? USD$13K?

Tell me, what are they going to be worth when the next better model comes out? The hits people take at these price points on the secondary market or as trade-ins are neck snappingly hilarious.

I'd love a pair to play with, but at about AUD$1599 pair maximum. Even that is pushing it.

 

[gino1961]

The largest factor is 8C's uneven frequency response on axis, ...

Hi ! can some EQ be the cure for that ? maybe i am wrong but in the Kii system, for instance, digital signal processing is applied heavily in order to get those phenomenal performance from small size woofers ?
originally i was thinking badly about EQ ... like messing up the signal. Then i read that it could be extremely beneficial to flatten peaks and dips in the frequency response. And digital processing really seems the way to go for EQ
Instead i think that a uniform and narrow dispersion (both H and V) is a god's gift. Like low distortion of course.

 

[Lorenzo74]

The largest factor is 8C's uneven frequency response on axis,

uneven? so what's even on earth?

(check this and forget about <100Hz since @Kal Rubinson left the subs EQs on....)
https://www.stereophile.com/content/dutch-dutch-8c-active-loudspeaker-system-measurements
this is the most objective assessment while we wait for @amirm to get his hands on them...

 

[Lorenzo74]

See my next column.


That's another story. Knowing that people will and should make their own decisions about these things regardless of what we think, I would try to educate him. I would inform him that I see three paths: 1. a retrophile path (vinyl, tubes), 2. an audiophile path (digital, modern electronics and passive speakers and 3. a proactive path (integrated active DSP-based loudspeakers and whatever digital gear is needed to feed them). I would personally rank them in ascending order (1, 2, 3) for accuracy/sound quality of music reproduction but will acknowledge that this is a hobby that many enjoy as much or more for the hardware and the manipulations. So, some might rank my three in reverse order (3, 2, 1) for their personal pleasure.

2 never win...

 

[BostonJack]

All of this assumes D & D goes belly up. Maybe they become the next KEF or Revel instead.

I definitely hope they succeed and continue to be innovative. My original comment was just an attempt to defend the proposition that even if D&D isn't long-lived, support is likely to live long.

 

[BostonJack]

Hi

I am of the older generation of audiophiles. The ultimate audio system for us would be:

Sources (Back in the days , we had several: AM/FM Tuner, Phono. R2R, Cassette, and later CD player
A Preamp/Control Center
Amps
Cables
Speakers.

The less "sophisticated" audiophiles would have an integrated amplifier. It has the preamp and amp in one chassis. Those more into "Lifestyle" would have a receiver (AM/FM Tuner, Preamp, amp in one chassis). The forefather of today's AVR which, for those non-serious audiophiles aka HT people. Serious audiophiles wouldn't use an AVR .

We can develop these ideas in another thread as audiophiles blew up the systems in more boxes. The more , the better, the more elevated and of course the more expensive:
We have now systems where the preamp is dual boxes, dual mono with separated power supplies in, you guessed it, more boxes, Preamp could then be mono, dual preamp in one system to mono blocks , two amps, two mono phono stage, 2 more boxes to a 4-box Digital System, some would even add their head amp for their R2R, thse also could be monos, thus 2-more boxes, they have a preamp aka Line Stage, A phono stage, A DAC, a "Transport", Sometimes a "clock" and these days all those plus a streamer .. So the more boxes and cables the better...

The 8C (so far) system comes in a pair. Even subwoofers seem not to be necessary. Just a pair of relatively big "bookshelves" speakers. You need a laptop and AC outlets to plug them in, and you have full range (20 Hz to 20 KHz) up to 105 dB from what I remember. Their clever DSP-based back-wave cancellation seems to work in normal rooms, and their Constant Directivity is real from 200 Hz to 20 KHz, measured. Textbook FR... From any objective metrics this is the real deal.

This simplicity bothers, annoys deeply, subliminally. No wonder we begin questioning the company (too young? will it be around, just one product?) and its capabilities. Can it be really that good?, Can it do multi-channel? Just one product?
I believe the same reflex has made audiophiles shun Bang & Olufsen. Their speakers/audio systems are the real deal (The Beolab 90, 50, 30 , 20) are as good or better than most audiophile and./or pro offerings and they are prettier . Anyone who want to be convinced should have a serious listen to a pair of Beolab 5. It will wipe the floor with many audiophile darlings and plays louder than most people would care to listen to .. Yet, never mentioned in audiophile circles, not even here at ASR.
I hope those who can, listen to this speaker and research its measurements. From what I have read, It is an advance in audio reproduction. Will they buy it ? I would say it is a matter of proper marketing (manufacturer responsibility) and from us the objective community to cast aside our prejudices (Intellectual honesty and consistency). We should recognize the product for what it is .. Not for what we remember things to be. The audiophile shrine is the past.. Long live a pair of box and a PC !!!

From this:
View attachment 67833

to thatView attachment 67834

hahaha, I bet they sound even better after sipping a negroni.

 

[Wes]

John, if you'd heard these things, you'd forget any opinions on component pricing etc... they are absolutely astonishing. They are the only speaker I've heard that sound absolutely mind bending in small mixing rooms, right up there next to our PMC's which are installed professionally at a price of over 50k, our room is also calibrated and cost a couple hundred k in construction.

In terms of ear candy they are amazing, but as a mixing engineer, the translation of these speakers is next to none, mix purely to taste and it translates perfectly. Hence why if you knew the engineer list now using them, Bob Katz and a whole slew of big dogs all over the USA,

They are way under priced for what we get, and with 8 years R&D ( I only know because of vintage king USA and the back story ) nothing... and I mean nothing comes close under 50k (and only if you have a room). these things work in ****** small rooms giving the listener ridiculous results without any treatment whatsoever.

I scoffed at them, so on my last LA visit I went to vintage king and boom... blew my mind literally.

I do wish they'd of used better components... but like they say, design is far more important at the end of the day over oil capacitors.

Prahlad Strickland

Yes, the price is based on the R&D investment.

But - assuming Resto-J is right about the component cost - or even close to correct - copies at much lower prices should be forthcoming. An IP lawyer will have to figure out how close a copy can come and then...

 

[Kal Rubinson]

2 never win...

Sure, it can. It's what I do now.

 

[YSC]

I think for wealthy consumers yes, why not? having something not requiring a lifting truck to move around or install and sounds technically perfect is a dream to most newer generations, but despite it being relative cheap, it's a lot more costly than say genelec/ Neumann + relevant subs, so likely the cost would make a lot of potential buyers in this active segment away into those studio monitor brands

 

[Sal1950]

There remains the issue of being locked into today's technology. The DAC and amplification sections are fairly well solved problems, but DRC and driver design likely have a long way to go, then what? This along with the life span and repair questions of very expensive components would always leave me a bit nervous and wondering what I will do when one of the pieces in the puzzle lets the smoke out?

 

[YSC]

There remains the issue of being locked into today's technology. The DAC and amplification sections are fairly well solved problems, but DRC and driver design likely have a long way to go, then what? This along with the life span and repair questions of very expensive components would always leave me a bit nervous and wondering what I will do when one of the pieces in the puzzle lets the smoke out?

I wouldn’t worry too much about this as respectable companies normally honour the warranty quite a bit and if parts are unavailable they likely offer a free upgrade in those unlucky few cases. Nobody would wanna have a bad reputation so their next mega bucks product wouldn’t sell.

but for one companies like genelec and Neumann which known to be reliable are preferred. I have seen ppl still using 20years old gennelecs where they still repairs

 

[Lorenzo74]

There remains the issue of being locked into today's technology. The DAC and amplification sections are fairly well solved problems, but DRC and driver design likely have a long way to go, then what? This along with the life span and repair questions of very expensive components would always leave me a bit nervous and wondering what I will do when one of the pieces in the puzzle lets the smoke out?

legacy class A-AB amp smoke out.
go to minute 2:08 is LoL

latest Class D amp find their way into pro audio industry (TI, ICEpower, Hypex,Pascal ) with a level of reliability the audiophilers will love if they just start the "active" journey.
free to disagree but only after have tried.
best
L.

 

[sangbro]

I just find this... and as a user of B&W (all in one + even streaming) Formation Duo,
I remember that I‘m surprised at the sound quality - the advantage of all in one design...
the designer know what they pursue and get it done in a right way.

The possible problems are basically two kinds from my experience.

1) You have to settle with one sound. (good for some, critical limitation for some)
2) If there is trouble, you have to deal with the whole unit.

#1 wouldn’t be a problem if the user likes it. #2 wouldn’t be a problem if the user has tons of money.

But for me, because of #2 reason, I don’t want to.
Also there is no way to distort sound later for any personal reasons.

Also not sure about other people, but for me, one of major reasons I buy B&W formation duo is its clean look. (No wire, no something around)
And good look. D&D 8C looks okay but personally not 10k good.

If I had this much money I would get Avantgarde for a living room, and honestly not care about the graph.
It would be like buying classic maserati quattroporte.
(And my one of the other sound rooms maybe ATC or Genelec, I don’t know)