Will consumers buy the Dutch & Dutch 8C?

[Dimifoot]

And no way Atmos-Auro decoding/digital outs

 

[phoenixdogfan]

In my occasional Google Image searches, I have been amazed at the incredible variety of loudspeaker designs out there, and some of the Gradient models certainly fit in the exotic category...

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Top one looks like "The Plumbus" of Rick and Morty fame.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

There are a lot of end-of-life options here. (postulating D&D's eventual demise): A couple of techs/engineers buy remaining stock and technical docs and have a modest but steady repair and remanufacture business going. A major audio company could do the same. Happens all the time in various tech businesses, especially ones that have limited markets and highly respected products.

Having studios as major customers (in my opinion) will create demand for this type of service (should it become necessary.)

All of this assumes D & D goes belly up. Maybe they become the next KEF or Revel instead.

 

[Dialectic]

All of this assumes D & D goes belly up. Maybe they become the next KEF or Revel instead.

Some of us are obviously pulling for this to happen.

We sometimes need new companies that can make a clean break from old and obsolete engineering. Institutional inertia can prevent that from happening at established companies.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

As others have pointed out, in a domestic environment, acoustic performance is not the only factor. I mulled this over in print when I decided to stick with "traditional" Revel Studio2s and Benchmark AHB2s. My speakers go in a living room where neither the D&D or the Kii is esthetically acceptable. In addition, my system is multichannel and synchronizing these guys is not impossible, I am sure, but not assured so far as I know. When he visited with me and listened to my system, Martijn Mensink, confirmed the validity of my choice.

(FWIW, I have set aside funds if this situation changes.)

I'm not completely sure why you say the D & D's might not work in a multichannel environment. If, for example, all you wanted them to be L-R fronts in a 5.1 setup, couldn't you find 2 passive surrounds and a passive center with an adequate timbral match and dispersion characteristic? Do their DSP create some sort of latency issue which makes them unable to "work and play well" with the other speakers, or are you just worried about timbre and possibly mismatches on cosmetics?

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Exactly!
Only way to setup & control (EQ aso) my Elac SUB-2050 is through an IOS app. Apple released IOS13 and app ceased to work. Took months before Elac released new app that worked under IOS13.
Not expecting Elac to maintain app much longer.

The solution is to go back to the earlier operating system and use the PC running that your dedicated music server. Nothing else on that system. As long as the software works, no updates at all. As long as your streaming services will continue to work, shouldn't really be a problem.

Hi

Trying to be short: The 8C is one of the best measuring speaker system around, is a ROON -compatible complete system with DAC amps, etc .It integrates well with normal environments , producing accurate in-room full range performance. For $10,000.
I would not call it this a bargain but would call it the answer to the dream of most audiophiles.

It ticks all the boxes.

 

[Sal1950]

All of this assumes D & D goes belly up.

Some of us are obviously pulling for this to happen.

I don't think anyone here wishes them or any other non-snakeoil manufacturer ill.
I do wish for a honest appraisal of new products by reviewers and salespersons and even owners. (maybe too much to ask ) I've been at this hobby for close to 60 years and I'd hate to add up the times a product using a new approach or technology proclaimed "all else is gaslight" or a "total revolution in sound". In near every case the truth is, if anything, that it's made a incremental improvement in the SOTA. In the case of Kii or D&D they've done an excellent job of bringing together a number of existing technology's to offer more of a lifestyle product that offers the layman (non-super enthusiast) a product he can bring home, set in place, and very quickly have near SOTA reproduction. Before this required something like many of the members here have done, using expensive speakers, doing extensive measurements and plugging them into some modern DSP system.
Like I said, no one wishes these manufacturers ill, they themselves are pretty much totally innocent of any real wrong doing. Any ire that has sometimes fallen on the others for making exaggerated claims is mainly due their attempt to put money in their pockets. But that's business and expected, then there are others, like some here, who like to shine the light of truth on exaggerated or mis-represented claims.

I'm not completely sure why you say the D & D's might not work in a multichannel environment.

I'll only answer this by saying if you were going to spend this kind of money on a multich system, you should expect to get SOTA results. IMO to do so requires more that just using them for the front L & R speakers, then trying to come close with the other 3. I've heard this argued a thousand times but if your goal is really a SOTA system, you want identical speakers in all 4 corners and even the center if at all possible. I've never heard anyone argue, since around 1965, that the L & R speakers on a stereo system need only be "close" timberally. I could go on about why identical speakers are important, but remember we're taking about wanting SOTA multich reproduction, and I don't believe it's really necessary to explain if you think about it.
I don't know if the type of DSP and radiation patterns of the D&D's or Kii's would have a problem in this kind of arrangement but unless there are some specific issues I don't understand, I would think they would be capable of producing a world class multich system if used in a room that is properly sized to their capabilities.

 

[Thomas savage]

So are people buying these ? To get back to the OP.

Iv a question, if I bought a pair of the basic studio version would my anthem str pre amps room correction software work with these and could i still integrate duel subs like I do now.

Or dose the design of the 8c prevent this ?

 

[Chrispy]

What's a Dutch & Dutch brand anything let alone this specific model?

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I don't think anyone here wishes them or any other non-snakeoil manufacturer ill.
I do wish for a honest appraisal of new products by reviewers and salespersons and even owners. (maybe too much to ask ) I've been at this hobby for close to 60 years and I'd hate to add up the times a product using a new approach or technology proclaimed "all else is gaslight" or a "total revolution in sound". In near every case the truth is, if anything, that it's made a incremental improvement in the SOTA. In the case of Kii or D&D they've done an excellent job of bringing together a number of existing technology's to offer more of a lifestyle product that offers the layman (non-super enthusiast) a product he can bring home, set in place, and very quickly have near SOTA reproduction. Before this required something like many of the members here have done, using expensive speakers, doing extensive measurements and plugging them into some modern DSP system.
Like I said, no one wishes these manufacturers ill, they themselves are pretty much totally innocent of any real wrong doing. Any ire that has sometimes fallen on the others for making exaggerated claims is mainly due their attempt to put money in their pockets. But that's business and expected, then there are others, like some here, who like to shine the light of truth on exaggerated or mis-represented claims.


I'll only answer this by saying if you were going to spend this kind of money on a multich system, you should expect to get SOTA results. IMO to do so requires more that just using them for the front L & R speakers, then trying to come close with the other 3. I've heard this argued a thousand times but if your goal is really a SOTA system, you want identical speakers in all 4 corners and even the center if at all possible. I've never heard anyone argue, since around 1965, that the L & R speakers on a stereo system need only be "close" timberally. I could go on about why identical speakers are important, but remember we're taking about wanting SOTA multich reproduction, and I don't believe it's really necessary to explain if you think about it.
I don't know if the type of DSP and radiation patterns of the D&D's or Kii's would have a problem in this kind of arrangement but unless there are some specific issues I don't understand, I would think they would be capable of producing a world class multich system if used in a room that is properly sized to their capabilities.

Identical speakers? I seriously doubt most owner's of flagship speakers like Ultima Salon 2 have identical speakers in their multi channel set ups. I know Kal, for one, uses F206s with his Ultima Studio 2 L-R fronts, and one of the Revel Centers. I'm sure they all have a close familial resemblance, but they're hardly identical. And as we go to really, really multichannel (16 channel Atmos and 13 Channel DTS-X) it will be even more likely surrounds diverge in size, price, timbre and directivity from the front mains. So, yes, careful matching, but there's no reason that has to mean everything from the same manufacturer. That's especially true if one's passion for 2 channel music reproduction greatly exceeds one's passion for cinematic explosions and space ship flyovers!

 

[phoenixdogfan]

So are people buying these ? To get back to the OP.

Iv a question, if I bought a pair of the basic studio version would my anthem str pre amps room correction software work with these and could i still integrate duel subs like I do now.

Or dose the design of the 8c prevent this ?

Based on what I've read about them and the Kii 3s, I would question whether you would need room correction other than what's included. Mitchco covered them extensively and he basically said they had impeccable Harmon curve FR, time coincident linear phase drivers, and could reach into the 20hz range just as is. The only real criticism I've read indicates they can't play much louder than 105 db and their directivity (by design) is narrow (but smooth and constant). They will accept either LPCM or analog signal, so the only question I can see regarding mating something to them (either subs or integrating into multichannel) is one of latency, and I don't know they would have any issues there either.

 

[Sal1950]

Identical speakers? I seriously doubt most owner's of flagship speakers like Ultima Salon 2 have identical speakers in their multi channel set ups. I know Kal, for one, uses F206s with his Ultima Studio 2 L-R fronts, and one of the Revel Centers. I'm sure they all have a close familial resemblance, but they're hardly identical. And as we go to really, really multichannel (16 channel Atmos and 13 Channel DTS-X) it will be even more likely surrounds diverge in size, price, timbre and directivity from the front mains. So, yes, careful matching, but there's no reason that has to mean everything from the same manufacturer.

Oh you might be surprised. Our @DonH56 has Salon 2's in the four corners, I don't remember what's in the center. There are a few more here right around that level but with my senior memory I'm having trouble remembering right now. It just all depends on your dedication and wallet. I'm running the new JBL HDI-3600's in the four corners and the 4500 center. I've got a bit of experience in multich systems, having assembled my first in 1974 with a Marantz 2270 receiver and their 2440 quad adapter/amplifier. My first set of fully matching system speakers came from Paradigm around 1990. Do you own a multich system? Multich music recordings being done by the real pro's from Steven Wilson to Mark Waldrep of AIX master incredible recordings that immerse you in the performance with musicians wrapping completely around you on both sides. If you expect to have the performers solidly image on the sides in the same manner you get across the front, the better the match, the better the image. Identical is the ultimate, how much your willing to compromise below that is up to you.
Of couse if you think a surround system is only for cinematic explosions and space ship flyovers you can get away with less. Maybe a good soundbar and subwoofer will make you happy.

 

[Purité Audio]

So are people buying these ? To get back to the OP.

Iv a question, if I bought a pair of the basic studio version would my anthem str pre amps room correction software work with these and could i still integrate duel subs like I do now.

Or dose the design of the 8c prevent this ?

You can use them like traditional active speakers, send them an analogue left/right signal from theAnthem preamp, or you can send them a digital signal use the inboard PEQ/tone controls, adjust volume either from your playback software or from the speakers own app.
The 8Cs are in terms of engineering are superb and the sound quality reflects that, as to sales predominantly they sell to younger guys who are technically knowledgeable.
Keith

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I am of the older generation of audiophiles. The ultimate audio system for us would be:

Sources (Back in the days , we had several: AM/FM Tuner, Phono. R2R, Cassette, and later CD player
A Preamp/Control Center
Amps
Cables
Speakers.

The less "sophisticated" audiophiles would have an integrated amplifier. It has the preamp and amp in one chassis. Those more into "Lifestyle" would have a receiver (AM/FM Tuner, Preamp, amp in one chassis). The forefather of today's AVR which, for those non-serious audiophiles aka HT people. Serious audiophiles wouldn't use an AVR .

We can develop these ideas in another thread as audiophiles blew up the systems in more boxes. The more , the better, the more elevated and of course the more expensive:
We have now systems where the preamp is dual boxes, dual mono with separated power supplies in, you guessed it, more boxes, Preamp could then be mono, dual preamp in one system to mono blocks , two amps, two mono phono stage, 2 more boxes to a 4-box Digital System, some would even add their head amp for their R2R, thse also could be monos, thus 2-more boxes, they have a preamp aka Line Stage, A phono stage, A DAC, a "Transport", Sometimes a "clock" and these days all those plus a streamer .. So the more boxes and cables the better...

The 8C (so far) system comes in a pair. Even subwoofers seem not to be necessary. Just a pair of relatively big "bookshelves" speakers. You need a laptop and AC outlets to plug them in, and you have full range (20 Hz to 20 KHz) up to 105 dB from what I remember. Their clever DSP-based back-wave cancellation seems to work in normal rooms, and their Constant Directivity is real from 200 Hz to 20 KHz, measured. Textbook FR... From any objective metrics this is the real deal.

This simplicity bothers, annoys deeply, subliminally. No wonder we begin questioning the company (too young? will it be around, just one product?) and its capabilities. Can it be really that good?, Can it do multi-channel? Just one product?
I believe the same reflex has made audiophiles shun Bang & Olufsen. Their speakers/audio systems are the real deal (The Beolab 90, 50, 30 , 20) are as good or better than most audiophile and./or pro offerings and they are prettier . Anyone who want to be convinced should have a serious listen to a pair of Beolab 5. It will wipe the floor with many audiophile darlings and plays louder than most people would care to listen to .. Yet, never mentioned in audiophile circles, not even here at ASR.
I hope those who can, listen to this speaker and research its measurements. From what I have read, It is an advance in audio reproduction. Will they buy it ? I would say it is a matter of proper marketing (manufacturer responsibility) and from us the objective community to cast aside our prejudices (Intellectual honesty and consistency). We should recognize the product for what it is .. Not for what we remember things to be. The audiophile shrine is the past.. Long live a pair of box and a PC !!!

From this:

to that

 

[PierreV]

View attachment 67834

We already had a bit of fun with that marketing photo, I believe.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Do their DSP create some sort of latency issue which makes them unable to "work and play well" with the other speakers

Very possibly. In addition, the D&Ds simply would not physically fit where my SL/SR speakers have to go.

I know Kal, for one, uses F206s with his Ultima Studio 2 L-R fronts, and one of the Revel Centers.

Incorrect. I use three Ultima Studio 2 for L-C-R fronts.

 

[Shorty]

[...] Iv a question, [...] would my anthem str pre amps room correction software work with these and could i still integrate duel subs like I do now.

Or dose the design of the 8c prevent this ?

As far as I know, you can upload correction files straight out of REW to each individual 8c....
Your subs, however, are a different matter. But @mitchco reported accurate room response from 21 Hz to 20 kHz within 3dB at the listening position in his room, without external DSP.

 

[QMuse]

So are people buying these ? To get back to the OP.

Iv a question, if I bought a pair of the basic studio version would my anthem str pre amps room correction software work with these and could i still integrate duel subs like I do now.

Or dose the design of the 8c prevent this ?

You don't need to use their internal EQ capabilities so they can work the same like your current mains do. You can also integrate them with your dual subs the same way you did with your current mains. They provide analog output for integration with active subs but you don't need to use it as you don't need to use their internal DSP.

But @mitchco reported accurate room response from 21 Hz to 20 kHz within 3dB at the listening position in his room, without external DSP.

This is EQ'ed response that @mitchco got with their internal DSP:

 

[FrantzM]

I took the time to read a few times, several reviews and measurements of the Dutch & Dutch 8C...

a little Pause for effect .....

This 8C speaker system, on paper is nothing short of EXTRAORDINARY.
We can bitch and moan and complain , it remains a spectacular achievement. It struts its performance in real rooms.. That comes from various credible sources. 21 to 20,000 Hz with textbook behavior and serious output... 105 dB in the lows, try that people and see y our house shaking, 105 dB is unbearable for most people in the midrange , this 8C does it ... easily... repeat after me: 105 dB!!!!
Consumers (the public) have shown they can go for the lesser products, vide the immense popularity of Beats headphones or the fact that audiophiles continue to purchase $15,000 Power cords to put in systems the 8 C shall wipe the floor with... I mean entire systems costing multiple of the 8C...
It would be a squandered opportunity, for the people here that are able to afford this thing, not to consider it on the premises of the youth of the company or the multiplicity of (BS) rationale or pretexts I have seen in this thread.

I, for one, now have these, in my sight. I would like to know if the Studio version plus a PC is not all I need in my room (Roon would be run from the PC). Question to those who know: Does the Studio version have the same DSP software? .. I know it comes only in black and may be fuggly , I can live with that...

 

[Purité Audio]

I believe the two versions are identical apart from the cabinet material, colour and fixings for ‘u’ stands oh and price!
Keith