Will consumer audio take over the hifi scene?

[EJ3]

JSmith

The coat makes him look exceedingly dangerous, haha!

 

[EJ3]

The modern 4 cylinder gasoline automobile engine is just about a standard commodity. A few engine manufacturing companies could make them in a half-dozen varieties and sell them to the major auto manufacturers, yet most auto manufacturers continue to make their own 4 cyl. engines. We are though seeing a shift whereby auto manufacturers buy engines from a company that specializes in engines. This is exactly what is happening with class D amps by ICE, Hypex, Purifi, and etc. High-end audio like high end cars and high end wrist watches and high-end appliances will continue and the brands will thrive on legend and hype....which we all love. My dishwasher is better than yours!

You may find this interesting/entertaining (from 2016 [and yes, it is in a very few, very high end, production cars today]):

Freevalve Update Camless Engine -- /INSIDE KOENIGSEGG​

 

[restorer-john]

Truly hi-fi sound is in the reach of nearly everybody now. Traits like tonality, frequency response, distortion, etc. are becoming so well engineered into the cheapest and smallest of equipment that even the most stubborn of “audiophiles” have to take notice. No longer is it necessary to spend obscene amounts of money on the largest and most expensive equipment. Now, commonplace speakers and other equipment can be found that measure exceptionally well and cost but a fraction of traditional setups. This is nothing but a benefit for us all.

We should appreciate that excellence in engineering that has got us to this point and given us the equipment that we have today. That’s not to deny a place for the highest of Fi, but it’s to accept that good quality sound is now in the range of anybody who desires it. There’s a use-case for both types of enthusiast.

Now someone can come into a forum such as this and discuss the qualities of a speaker like a Sonos without being ridiculed. It possesses its own merits in many different ways, just as a KEF or Revel does their own. But now the important thing is that someone can achieve accurate sound no matter their budget. That is what we are here to discuss and discern.

People just want to buy something that works and sounds good in order to enjoy their music. The difference today as opposed to yesterday is that people doing so have a much better chance on inherently buying a speaker, or other piece of gear, that has a correct tonality, rather than the crapshoot it was likely to be before. As audiophiles (in the truest sense) we can now welcome many others into the hobby because of this.

Democratized high fidelity sound reproduction has been available for over 50 years. Not only that, the range of high fidelity equipment available from the 1970s through the 1980s and into the 1990s absolutely dwarfs anything we have now.

Consider brands like Pioneer, Kenwood, Sony, Akai, Sansui, Rotel, Marantz, Denon etc. All would had a large range of amplifiers from $100-$1500 and receivers from $130-$1800 in the early 70s. A huge range of sources, speakers, headphones, cartridges etc for each brand. Updated the entire core range each year. Such was the scale of the business. And the fierce competition meant the HiFi consumer was getting phenomenal choice and value.

The differences in build quality, features, reliability, ergonomics and overall value for money of todays' products are not even remotely close to the enormous ranges from myriad quality manufacturers of yore. Now, there is so little competition among the giants, they simply don't care anymore. Take Yamaha for instance- their absolute top of the line pre/power and Technics TOTL pre/power both have specs that are not even in the same ballpark as products they both produced in the 1980s.

All we have had in the last 40 years in HiFi is a slow evolution of digital sources, more cost cutting in construction, the retirement of a whole lot of obsolete sources and the zombie resurrection of a dead format in the form of vinyl. Speakers are no better except in exterior finish. They certainly don't sound superior and if I see another rave review on a 5.25" two way 'giant killer' bookshelf speaker, I will scream. Where are the full range speakers at reasonable prices? Speakers are not expensive to make, only to ship.

A generation or two have grown up not seeing and listening to real HiFi in their parent's loungerooms and have likely never ventured into a real HiFi store as there are so few left and the cost of entry is too high.

There has always been a chasm of quality between high fidelity reproduction equipment and mum and dad sound systems. The difference was, people aspired to owning and using high fidelity equipment in the 60s, 70s and 80s. So business boomed. Now there are many other pursuits vying for their time and keeping people sitting still, long enough to actually engage with music is a challenge. Short attention spans and high fidelity reproduction are not a natural fit IMO.

 

[restorer-john]

Incidentally, I ventured into a JB-HiFi store yesterday (our largest consumer electronics business in Australia), not expecting to see any real HiFi, but hoping to see something, anything, that I might get excited about.

Sadly, there was absolutely nothing in the entire audio section I would have even picked up for free on a kerbside pickup. It was all garbage. The best 'turntable' was a plastic fantastic Audio Technica 'homage' to the Technics SL-1200mk2 at $799. No speakers, a few ratty looking plastic panelled AVRs. All the rest was consumer crap like soundbars, TVs and boombox light up party speakers.

Thing is, I am one of the few people who remember how the company started. John Barbuto (the JB in JB-HiFi) used to advertise in a small classified ad in Melbourne's lift out "green guide" newspaper (TV/Radio/audio etc). He had no shop. I recall going with my father in the mid 70s to East Keilor, to a newish house, where we walked around the back to a brick garage where he had his HiFi. Floor stacks of boxes, item on top and priced ready to go. What seemed like hundreds of pieces of gear, keenly priced and deals to be done. Long before he had an actual retail presence. It was obvious even to a young boy like me, that this guy was switched on.

Now the business that bears his name (he sold out a long time ago) does $5 billion in sales, but has NO actual HiFi worth bothering with. Sad.

https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/retail/jb-hifi-reports-record-sales-and-earnings-for-half-year-2023/news-story/4327d14c9091080c18b3638f5aca3201

 

[mhardy6647]

Well -- I concur with @restorer-john... imagine that?!

 

[RayDunzl]

Will consumer audio take over the hifi scene?

 

[EJ3]

Speakers are no better except in exterior finish. They certainly don't sound superior and if I see another rave review on a 5.25" two way 'giant killer' bookshelf speaker, I will scream.

Even my wood veneer Radio Shack (Tandy to restorer-john, I think) Minimus 7's were bought with a 12" sub-woofer (35? HZ). Now I run Dahlquist M-905's (8" & tweeter 26-20 KHz +-2 Db from the internal xover) with a pair of custom 12' subs. What is a 5.25', an upper mid-range? Surely it's not even an upper BASS speaker? Where are the competent 3- ways?

 

[TimF]

A large retail chain for electronic equipment in the USA is Best Buy. It was founded by a man named Richard Schultz from St. Paul, MN. I remember in the late 1960's he had small an audio store in St. Paul on Snelling Avenue, I think, and it was called Sound of Music. From that store he slowly built up Best Buy. The store on Snelling Ave. always had a table or two packed with specials, open box close-outs and mark-downs. I bought a marked-down (don't tell anyone I bought 'off-price') Marantz integrated amp that had bass, mid and treble tone controls. I made a mistake and got rid of it to get a NAD 3020. The Marantz was truly better than that hugely successful NAD. By the way, I looked up where East Keilor, Australia is. It's not too far from Fairytales Bridal Boutique on Rosamound Rd. I see.

 

[boswell]

@restorer-john in 1970 while in high school went to Encels, in Bridge rd Richmond. Alex Encel ran the show bought a JH turntable+Grace arm + shure cartridge $120, a Rotel 210? receiver $108 and a diy SEAS kit, tweeter and 10 '' woofer ~$200. Advice then was to spend half on speakers. Later also went to JB in Keilor, mainly to buy LPs, it was a shop at that stage.
Turntable needs rubber band, speakers still going strong, Rotel passed away 15 years ago if i knew then what i know now it was probably repairable(brittle solder etc)

 

[bungle]

Will I be able to toss my Genelecs after 5 years in lieu of a pair of HomePods and get an upgrade in audio performance?

Many Apple stores have Genelecs connected to Macs, despite they have their own speakers and headphones. They know that professionals will never use something like HomePod to mix audio (they are not designed for critical listening). Genelec knows that too. And so do hobbyists.

 

[restorer-john]

@restorer-john in 1970 while in high school went to Encels, in Bridge rd Richmond. Alex Encel ran the show bought a JH turntable+Grace arm + shure cartridge $120, a Rotel 210? receiver $108 and a diy SEAS kit, tweeter and 10 '' woofer ~$200. Advice then was to spend half on speakers. Later also went to JB in Keilor, mainly to buy LPs, it was a shop at that stage.
Turntable needs rubber band, speakers still going strong, Rotel passed away 15 years ago if i knew then what i know now it was probably repairable(brittle solder etc)

Cool memories. Are they the black face tweeters with the wire grille and four screws? I have a few spares from a Seas encel built pair I stripped if you ever need them. Encel was a legend, and a very good salesman. He brought Rotel to Australia and I believe his company Interdyn still distributes them to this day.

Our Brands - Interdyn Australia

www.interdyn.com.au

Every piece of classic Luxman you see in Australia most likely went through them as sole importers for many decades.

I used to catch a tram down to Bridge road in Richmond from where we lived in Kew. There was an electronics store called "Ham Radio" and they always had a lucky dip style parts bin at the entrance which only cost 5-20c for PCBs and random stuff. Back when the tram tickets were 2/3/6 cents. I was in grade 3, so 7 or 8 years old and my Dad would have killed me if he knew I was going down there after school and bringing home things to pull apart and fix...

 

[DudleyDuoflush]

There has always been a chasm of quality between high fidelity reproduction equipment and mum and dad sound systems. The difference was, people aspired to owning and using high fidelity equipment in the 60s, 70s and 80s. So business boomed. Now there are many other pursuits vying for their time and keeping people sitting still, long enough to actually engage with music is a challenge. Short attention spans and high fidelity reproduction are not a natural fit IMO.

I'm not so sure that chasm exists now which, I think, is the point the OP was making. A pair of second hand Sonos Play 5 can be picked up for less than £700. They sound great and you'd be hard pushed to get significantly better sound for the cost. When I got my first hifi system there was a massive gap between the mass market sound quality a 'proper' hifi system. The first time I heard Rogers speakers (which my dad 'acquired' from one of the studios) was a revelation but I'm not so sure that would be the case today.

 

[dorakeg]

Apple and Samsung as a whole are huge compared to Bose, but how big are their speaker-only divisions compared to Bose?

I am not sure how big is Samsung's speaker division, but considering that they owns Harman international, the brand's they offer (non-samsung) is among the biggest in the industry. Brands like JBL, revel etc.

 

[boswell]

Yes the SEAS tweeter is as you described, I was dragged into audio by a mate (both 16) , when we went to Encel he had to get a Rotel 610? and a Seas tweeter and 2 x 8" woofers, i had to make the cabinets and solder the crossovers. I went to uni, he got a job and could afford a pair of BOSE 901s as soon as they came out with a luxman amp and an AR turntable all from Encel. I still remember the playing of the Stones Let it Bleed through those really loud, it was a revelation particularly the wide sound stage.

 

[Galliardist]

Incidentally, I ventured into a JB-HiFi store yesterday (our largest consumer electronics business in Australia), not expecting to see any real HiFi, but hoping to see something, anything, that I might get excited about.

Sadly, there was absolutely nothing in the entire audio section I would have even picked up for free on a kerbside pickup. It was all garbage. The best 'turntable' was a plastic fantastic Audio Technica 'homage' to the Technics SL-1200mk2 at $799. No speakers, a few ratty looking plastic panelled AVRs. All the rest was consumer crap like soundbars, TVs and boombox light up party speakers.

Thing is, I am one of the few people who remember how the company started. John Barbuto (the JB in JB-HiFi) used to advertise in a small classified ad in Melbourne's lift out "green guide" newspaper (TV/Radio/audio etc). He had no shop. I recall going with my father in the mid 70s to East Keilor, to a newish house, where we walked around the back to a brick garage where he had his HiFi. Floor stacks of boxes, item on top and priced ready to go. What seemed like hundreds of pieces of gear, keenly priced and deals to be done. Long before he had an actual retail presence. It was obvious even to a young boy like me, that this guy was switched on.

Now the business that bears his name (he sold out a long time ago) does $5 billion in sales, but has NO actual HiFi worth bothering with. Sad.

https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/retail/jb-hifi-reports-record-sales-and-earnings-for-half-year-2023/news-story/4327d14c9091080c18b3638f5aca3201

Although you could probably get a decent phone/headphone setup from JB today that would outdo most or all headphone listening from back then by quite a margin.

 

[Chrispy]

Gotta love auto correct! lol. And I guess by hi-fi, I mean the audio hobby scene as a whole. Stuff that might be discussed on this forum or sold at the struggling hi-fi shop down the street. Non mainstream, enthusiast grade gear, whether that be "pro" or "audiophile" grade... Some of those snake oil audio companies haven't improved much over the years and sound / measure worse than the mainstream wireless department store stuff from the big boys. I've even seen posts of discerning listeners switch over to the Sonos Play 5 and QuietComfort and they seem totally happy with the audio performance. I just feel like that might be a sign of the times.

Audio hobby doesn't quite capture it for me either. I haven't had a hifi shop in years anywhere near where I live, most of my friends/family just aren't into audio these days (some stopped after getting married, tho, some others after hearing deteriorated). This and just a few other online communities are the only part of the "scene" I can handle generally, so much of the social media on the subject is just out there in lalaland with ridiculous products and shills for said products dominating those groups....not much of a scene that deserves participation. Sonos for someone starting from scratch seems reasonable, personally I prefer more capabilities than they offer. I had to look up QuietComfort (i.e. Bose noise cancelling headphone brand). I can see how those and soundbars works for some, might even be something that would work well for me if I were just starting out.

 

[EJ3]

@restorer-john in 1970 while in high school went to Encels, in Bridge rd Richmond. Alex Encel ran the show bought a JH turntable+Grace arm + shure cartridge $120, a Rotel 210? receiver $108 and a diy SEAS kit, tweeter and 10 '' woofer ~$200. Advice then was to spend half on speakers. Later also went to JB in Keilor, mainly to buy LPs, it was a shop at that stage.
Turntable needs rubber band, speakers still going strong, Rotel passed away 15 years ago if i knew then what i know now it was probably repairable(brittle solder etc)

Unfortunately my old Connosiur TT needs a rubber motor holder, otherwise I could still use it as an actually functioning conversation piece, with it's Grace arm.

 

[mhardy6647]

I bought a marked-down (don't tell anyone I bought 'off-price') Marantz integrated amp that had bass, mid and treble tone controls. I made a mistake and got rid of it to get a NAD 3020. The Marantz was truly better than that hugely successful NAD.

Not one of these grubby puppies, by any chance?

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(sorry I didn't clean them up before they were photographed together one last time...)

 

[LouB]

A lot of conjuncture here, give Crutchfield or Safe & Sound a call and see how many pieces of "Hi-Fi" gear they ship every month you would be surprised. Lots of People are still buying it. And to OP why would you think it's "pointless" to have a room full of audio gear ? If you follow that line of thought we all should drive a car that would only do the speed limit, wear a 9 dollar digital watch watch, live in square boxes that all look the same ect, Point taken on you can get "Hi-Fi" sound much cheaper than you could 50 years ago but that is the same across the board. With today's tech & global economy I can buy musical instruments, tools, vehicles with performance & quality that simply wasn't avaible 50 years ago & if it was it would cost 2-3 times what I pay now. Audio industry is no different.

 

[Multicore]

I think @restorer-john has it about right but

The difference was, people aspired to owning and using high fidelity equipment in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

I think the aspiration part goes back farther than that. The equipment was different but the aspiration to a good quality radio set, gramophone or radiogram was there in generations prior. And some of that old gear did sound good. And some of it was nice carpentry too. The ancient radio set my grandparents kept on top of the fridge would be warmed up by the time The Archers came on, and I was required to be quiet throughout.