WiiM Ultra

[Ze Frog]

If you’re wanting balanced outs, just add a DAC with balanced outs to the WiiM; I suspect many (most?) of those wanting that facility will have such a DAC already.

For me I'll just go adapter route myself, seems a waste of a perfectly good already DAC. Unless when it's measured here it's pretty junky, but I doubt it.

Speaking of such, I'm actually amazed WIIM haven't sent one to Amir for testing, I mean large swathes of us on here aren't really interested in the standard YouTube influencer type stuff. Surely having some actual measurements and a proper review would be beneficial and good marketing.

 

[JustJones]

Do you need something else if it's an active studio monitor with a built in DAC like KH150?

If you're connecting it by analog then no. Adapter or cable with RCA to XLR. You could connect digital since the WiiM has digital out.

 

[WalterW]

Then why would RME develop the special circuit and all the rest of the stuff if it's just going to sound the same as any other DAC anyways ?View attachment 383105

Also, it is well possible that a clever implementation of the chip and the whole circuit results in better SINAD and THD values. But when the device was audibly transparent before these improvements already, you will not gain any audible improvement, just better specs. It is like drowning, it doesn't matter if the water is 3 meters deep or 1000 meters, if you can't swim, you will drown either way.

 

[WalterW]

So WiiM Ultra should sound as good as this DAC?View attachment 381720

Yes, or maybe even better as I haven't seen measurements of this MSB DAC and maybe it is not audibly transparent? One (of many) great achievements of ASR is that it showed that DACs are a solved problem and can be had for a few $100 (or just $9 for the Apple dongle) and one does not need to worry about the sound quality.

 

[Willem]

The strong points of the ADI-2 are in its facilities. No other preamp/DAC has things like balance control, dynamic loudness etc.

 

[Petrushka]

Yes, or maybe even better as I haven't seen measurements of this MSB DAC and maybe it is not audibly transparent? One (of many) great achievements of ASR is that it showed that DACs are a solved problem and can be had for a few $100 ( or just $9 for the Apple dongle) and one does not need to worry about the sound quality.

To be fair, most blind listeners could distinguish the $9 DAC from the $20,000 one, and only a few preferred it.

But those were headphone listeners. Over speakers, the $9 one faired pretty well.

 

[WalterW]

To be fair, most blind listeners could distinguish the $9 DAC from the $20,000 one, and only a few preferred it.

But those were headphone listeners. Over speakers, the $9 one faired pretty well.

Which test are you talking about? Please provide a link or any further evidence for such a claim, otherwise it must dismissed as unfounded.

 

[Petrushka]

Which test are you talking about? Please provide a link or any further evidence for such a claim, otherwise it must dismissed as unfounded.

"High-End" DAC Blind Listening Results - PART II: Results & Analyses

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

 

[Willem]

If the Apple dongle is already this good, the next question would be how much money one needs to spend for perfection. Is the Ultra good enough for that, or the ADI-2? I would guess both would be. I would be surprised if either of them were beaten by anything from LInn.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

For me I'll just go adapter route myself, seems a waste of a perfectly good already DAC.

If it’s only lying around…?

 

[Petrushka]

If the Apple dongle is already this good, the next question would be how much money one needs to spend for perfection. Is the Ultra good enough for that, or the ADI-2? I would guess both would be. I would be surprised if either of them were beaten by anything from LInn.

I’m just guessing, but I’d bet a small amount of money that the DAC chip is already better than human ears, and that any shortcomings or differences would be in the analog output circuit. Probably true of all products.

Possibly just a matter of impedance.

 

[WalterW]

"High-End" DAC Blind Listening Results - PART II: Results & Analyses

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

While Archimago is one of the more reliable persons in audio, I still think that the test is flawed. I mean you are hearing a musical file which was recorded on one of three DACs then in turn on your own one. So it is not clear at all if any audible difference (if it even exists) stems from the original DAC or your own one. Also "the listeners with more expensive systems ranked the $10 Apple USB-C dongle above the $20k Klimax DSM/2. " And the outcome in the overall test is not statistically significant. So I would not give much value to this test, the Apple done was measured by Amir and concluded to be audibly transparent.

 

[Petrushka]

While Archimago is one of the more reliable persons in audio, I still think that the test is flawed. I mean you are hearing a musical file which was recorded on one of three DACs then in turn on your own one. So it is not clear at all if any audible difference (if it even exists) stems from the original DAC or your own one. Also "the listeners with more expensive systems ranked the $10 Apple USB-C dongle above the $20k Klimax DSM/2. " And the outcome in the overall test is not statistically significant. So I would not give much value to this test, the Apple done was measured by Amir and concluded to be audibly transparent.

I tend to agree there are too many layers.

But I would doub that ordinary people, in ordinary use, would hear a difference between any two DACs that measure well.

I would pay a bit more for a DAC that measured significantly better than another, but not a lot.

I’m not going to be an early adopter of the Ultra, but it’s where I’m headed. Even with its teething pains, it does everything I wanted a preamp to do. Which is: competent phono stage with digital and analog output, spdif input for the TV, automatic source switching, remote control. I might use the USB port for music files. Nice to have. Nice to have the other features for possible use.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

Won't these things give an advantage to the RME DAC over the Ultra even if it used the same DAC chip as the Ultra ?View attachment 383071 View attachment 383072

Did you catch in my earlier comment that distinguished between Home Audio and Professional Studio? RME is selling to the latter category, whose requirements are different than home audio.

Also, if you do much reading on RME's approach to the market, you will also notice that they are not chasing the SINAD game nor are they focused on using the "latest and greatest" DAC chips. Rather, they are focused on stuff such as rock-steady clocking, ultra-low latency processing and transfers, high-quality AD/DA converters, high dynamic ranges, etc. because those are tangible and quantifiable benefits in the context of professional audio recording, studio mixing, and live performances.

Edit for one case in point: Jitter buffer management on the Ultra and Benchmark will be fantastic. But they are only receiving 2 channels, or maybe 11 channels for a full Atmos setting. RME products, e.g., UFX III, can transfer up to 188 channels over USB with 3ms of latency, and an RME ADI-2 DAC or Pro might be incorporated within such an audio chain. It is highly unlikely the WiiM Ultra could handle 188 channels over USB with no issues; but why would you care for a home audio environment?

That ad you copied was not written for you. It was written for their customer base highlighting the changes in their current model releases compared with their earlier releases.

You will also notice that they are not spending a lot of time trying to make their current customers upgrade from their older equipment to new equipment unless that customer now needs what is offered from the new stuff and can't get it from what they already own. In other words, they are still actively supporting drivers for equipment that is 20 years old and that is quite often still more than good enough for what the original owner needs.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

"High-End" DAC Blind Listening Results - PART II: Results & Analyses

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

I understand that in a DAC audibly perfect equates to total transparency. If this is achieved how can it be improved upon?

Because you are listening to sound that is output from the DAC as a complete unit, not the audio that came out of the DAC chip.

If I am comparing a TOPPING E30 (OG) and a TOPPING D10S, I am not going to hear a difference. Both are well above the SINAD level that I can differentiate in my home environment, and they do nothing beyond very competent digital to audio conversation and amplification at consumer-level line output. Which is the point of the article you referenced.

But, the WiiM Ultra and the RME ADI-2 do more than just the digital to analog conversion. They provide EQ and room correction, they apply algorithms for loudness adjustment, they implement mechanisms for automatically stepping between input / output gains, they allow (or do not allow) for separate sub-woofer output channel. Those are the elements that might make tangible difference in the sound quality in a home listening environment. As a result, there is very likely meaningful difference in sound quality beyond just whatever signal came out of the DAC chip.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

A DAC has one, and only one job, and that is to accurately convert the digital representation of music from the source into an analog representation of that music. Well measuring DACS do that with inaudible levels of noise and distortion, and with flat frequency response in the audible band. In other words the analogue output is (audibly) a perfect representation of the digitally encoded music.

Basically - we can select from the Blue and green sections of the chart here, and stop worrying about how a DAC sounds. That can free us up to consider other buying decisions, such as price, reliability, brand and features - including those features that can make an improvement to the in room sound - such as room EQ. Bear in mind though that those features (including EQ) also have nothing to do with the performance of the DAC circuit, but are about the DSP done before conversion to analogue.

I think we are saying essentially the same thing. The DAC chip itself will be transparent for human hearing, even if it isn't the same DAC chip between the units.

But by your definition, neither the Ultra nor the ADI-2 is a "DAC" because they both do more than "one thing", even though they include a DAC within them. And as you note, the features that those devices incorporate can make a difference.

And I understood the the original commentor as asking about more than just the DAC processing in isolation of everything else. E.g., USB receiver, jitter management, amplifier, etc.

 

[antcollinet]

I think we are saying essentially the same thing. The DAC chip itself will be transparent for human hearing, even if it isn't the same DAC chip between the units.

But by your definition, neither the Ultra nor the ADI-2 is a "DAC" because they both do more than "one thing", even though they include a DAC within them. And as you note, the features that those devices incorporate can make a difference.

And I understood the the original commentor as asking about more than just the DAC processing in isolation of everything else. E.g., USB receiver, jitter management, amplifier, etc.

No, not just the DAC chip - the entire DAC functionality in the device. The DAC chip and the analogue circuits between that and the analogue output of the device. Audibly perfect. What goes in is what comes out without audible distortion.

The extra functionality you are talking about is all about what goes INTO the DAC part of the device. The room correction/equalisation etc are all done in the digital domain before sending to the DAC.

Everything else - including USB receiver, jitter management, preamp functionality etc - all are solved problems. No audible difference to come from them - only from the deliberate DSP manipulation we want for tone control or room eq etc if those features are provided.

 

[Dreamslayer]

My Ultra was all set to arrive on Sunday or Monday but then I saw this...

My Amp and CD player are both Silver so I just had to shake the box and take my chances.
I was kind of bummed out that it only seemed to come in one color when it was announced,

 

[Jkdjedi]

My Ultra was all set to arrive on Sunday or Monday but then I saw this...
View attachment 383214
My Amp and CD player are both Silver so I just had to shake the box and take my chances.
I was kind of bummed out that it only seemed to come in one color when it was announced,

Mines gets here tomorrow, and seemed like it was only in silver when I placed the order you might get lucky. Did anyone notice the USB behind the unit is output and not an in as intillally anticipated? Dude on YouTube just confirmed this.
My only other streamer is the Audioengine B-Fi, I'm really anxious to compare the two side by side.

 

[Dreamslayer]

Mines gets here tomorrow, and seemed like it was only in silver when I placed the order you might get lucky. Did anyone notice the USB behind the unit is output and not an in as intillally anticipated? Dude on YouTube just confirmed this.
My only other streamer is the Audioengine B-Fi, I'm really anxious to compare the two side by side.

I have a Wiim Pro so I don't mind waiting a bit for the Ultra.

I heard conflicting info about the USB - I heard it could be used for files and I also heard it could be an output. I'll probably use it to connect to my Modi Multibit...