WiiM Ultra

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Just about to get my Ultra from Amazon next week...

Why did I part with my $329?

1st: USB functionality - both as "host" for use with USB drives (for my ripped CD's - and avoiding UPNP/DLNA routes to listen to my CD collection) and USB audio output -- might try my Qudelix T71/5K with this (as I have with my Node 130) -- I hear some ask why when the Wiim has PEQ? -- because the Qudelix PEQ is more comprehensive - more than 12db boost/cut, and true HPF/LPF filter functions...

2nd: Curious to hear how the ESS DAC sounds vs. the AKM in my Pro Plus (yeah - I know - it shouldn't matter - but I'm still curious)

3rd: Curious how good the headphone output is vs. my Topping NX7 or my ancient Creek OBH 11...

4th: Bass mgmt. - hope to use this function soon with my updated hifi system

5th: 3.5" Touchscreen display....just kidding....the display is useless as far as I'm concerned...

Lastly - Wiim's next products prediction: a "Ultra Pro/Plus" with XLR outputs and at some point a speaker - hope it's high performace to go up against the Sonos Play5/Era 300 - hopefully it'll adhere to some Harman/Toole design principles so the ASR crowd will bless it -- I believe ASR is a major driver for Wiim products in the market...

It does appear to be equally loved by both objectivists and subjectivists.

 

[ejr]

I’d be interested to hear which other streamer without a screen comes even close to the Ultra and anything like a comparable price, or one with a better screen which doesn’t cost c.2x as much upwards.

My post was not intended to be a commentary on this device's position in the marketplace or its advantages over other products in its category. It is merely to point out an omission that lost me as a customer and potentially others as well.

I am currently using a Roku Ultra to access Amazon Music on a smart TV (which, obvioulsy, has a screen). The problem is that it is streaming audio at 480, rather than 192 (which I think is the fault of the Roku device). I'm just looking to fix the problem by adding as few devices as possible. The Apple TV did this, but at the cost of introducing all sorts of other, more serious issues. It's obviously either going to be a replacement for the Roku or an audio streamer of some sort.

 

[somebodyelse]

Yes, I am aware. But how many items have they produced with PEQ?

They already had GEQ which isn't a lot different from a signal processing point of view - instead of plugging in set values of frequency and Q for each filter band you let the user set them. Making the GUI in the app probably involved more work.

 

[Petrushka]

There is a whole world of free open source software out there where people freely give up their time for something they believe in or otherwise wish to support. I have contributed a tiny, trivial bit of this myself, just one of over a hundred developers working on it (photo processing software not audio).

That too. But if something is good and becomes popular, it doesn’t hurt.

 

[Petrushka]

My post was not intended to be a commentary on this device's position in the marketplace or its advantages over other products in its category. It is merely to point out an omission that lost me as a customer and potentially others as well.

I am currently using a Roku Ultra to access Amazon Music on a smart TV (which, obvioulsy, has a screen). The problem is that it is streaming audio at 480, rather than 192 (which I think is the fault of the Roku device). I'm just looking to fix the problem by adding as few devices as possible. The Apple TV did this, but at the cost of introducing all sorts of other, more serious issues. It's obviously either going to be a replacement for the Roku or an audio streamer of some sort.

I occasionally stream stuff via the Roku Ultra. I have a couple hundred movies and about 50 TV series converted to MKV, and it does an outstanding job of upscaling.

Only OK on music.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

They already had GEQ which isn't a lot different from a signal processing point of view - instead of plugging in set values of frequency and Q for each filter band you let the user set them. Making the GUI in the app probably involved more work.

This is where we get into flexi-logic.

The first argument is that Topping can’t put PEQ into DACs because it’s too difficult.

Then WiiM create a DAC-streamer with PEQ.

So then the question is asked as to how difficult PEQ could possibly be.

And the answer? Only as difficult as GEQ.

So can we go back to the beginning?

If PEQ is only as difficult as GEQ, and GEQ is a piece of cake, common in digital devices for years…

…why haven’t we had it in DACs for years, and why did Topping say it was so difficult.

 

[somebodyelse]

This is where we get into flexi-logic.

The first argument is that Topping can’t put PEQ into DACs because it’s too difficult.

Then WiiM create a DAC-streamer with PEQ.

So then the question is asked as to how difficult PEQ could possibly be.

And the answer? Only as difficult as GEQ.

So can we go back to the beginning?

If PEQ is only as difficult as GEQ, and GEQ is a piece of cake, common in digital devices for years…

…why haven’t we had it in DACs for years, and why did Topping say it was so difficult.

They're starting from very different places - very different hardware capabilities and software platforms.

Wiim are starting with a streamer platform with processing power similar to a phone or Pi. I'm not sure it's running linux, but it's likely as that's what a lot of the streamers run. There are many relatively easy ways to add filters in linux, either at the OS level (alsa config, pipewire, etc.) or as part of the media streamer libraries (gstreamer or similar). You will find similar or more powerful EQ options on free software streaming options like piCorePlayer, Moode, Volumio etc. and threads explaining how to do similar on Pi or similar boards.

Topping are starting with a much less powerful microcontroller from XMOS with a much more limited set of DSP options. From what we've seen looking at firmware update processes for non-Windows computers, or common mistakes in device naming, they were sticking close to the XMOS example code. You need to use a microcontroller with sufficient processing power to process the EQ - much as they had to change to a more powerful microcontroller when they added MQA support. Someone with experience with the XMOS libraries explained here why Topping only apply the DSP to the USB input on the D50 III, which should give some idea of the practical difficulties. They had to add a proprietary way to communicate the DSP settings as UAC2 doesn't have an easy way to do that. This then needs support on the computer side, hence the Windows-only Topping Tune app. Or you stick enough screen and buttons/knobs on it to do the PEQ on the DAC itself. Could they have done it earlier? Certainly, if they thought there was enough demand. I did suggest an alternate firmware for those that didn't want MQA but did want PEQ. Could they have done it differently? Yes - maybe with a separate DSP chip, or moving from XMOS to something closer to streamer hardware. Both of those involve a hardware redesign, and varying degrees of new software work. The counter to this is that XMOS seems to be a selling point for marketting purposes.

DAC manufacturers in general will be in a similar position to Topping. A lot use XMOS microcontrollers, probably because the example code makes a basic USB to I2S adapter relatively easy, and because it has brand recognition for marketting. Schiit apparently wrote their own code - I don't remember the microcontroller brand. The outliers that have PEQ already tend to be pro audio interfaces rather than pure DACs, and that's because their primary market demands it, especially at the upper end. The return on investment made it worth doing, and there's probably a degree of technology trickling down from the top of the range.

The other thing that's been happening recently is increased availability of USB and Bluetooth chips that include DSP cores at low prices. That's whywe're seeing things like the Moondrop FreeDSP cable for IEMs, and Moondrop Space Travel bluetooth IEMs offering EQ at low cost. If one of these chips provides USB to I2S we will no doubt see more USB DACs with PEQ.

 

[JustCoolin‘]

Have a Pro Plus, but I ordered an Ultra specifically for the Touchscreen, which I‘ve missed since my trusty old Squeezebox Touch. I just can‘t stand the dependency on my phone to listen to music. A phone has no place in my living room, ideally.

 

[mags65]

They're starting from very different places - very different hardware capabilities and software platforms.

Wiim are starting with a streamer platform with processing power similar to a phone or Pi. I'm not sure it's running linux, but it's likely as that's what a lot of the streamers run. There are many relatively easy ways to add filters in linux, either at the OS level (alsa config, pipewire, etc.) or as part of the media streamer libraries (gstreamer or similar). You will find similar or more powerful EQ options on free software streaming options like piCorePlayer, Moode, Volumio etc. and threads explaining how to do similar on Pi or similar boards.

Topping are starting with a much less powerful microcontroller from XMOS with a much more limited set of DSP options. From what we've seen looking at firmware update processes for non-Windows computers, or common mistakes in device naming, they were sticking close to the XMOS example code. You need to use a microcontroller with sufficient processing power to process the EQ - much as they had to change to a more powerful microcontroller when they added MQA support. Someone with experience with the XMOS libraries explained here why Topping only apply the DSP to the USB input on the D50 III, which should give some idea of the practical difficulties. They had to add a proprietary way to communicate the DSP settings as UAC2 doesn't have an easy way to do that. This then needs support on the computer side, hence the Windows-only Topping Tune app. Or you stick enough screen and buttons/knobs on it to do the PEQ on the DAC itself. Could they have done it earlier? Certainly, if they thought there was enough demand. I did suggest an alternate firmware for those that didn't want MQA but did want PEQ. Could they have done it differently? Yes - maybe with a separate DSP chip, or moving from XMOS to something closer to streamer hardware. Both of those involve a hardware redesign, and varying degrees of new software work. The counter to this is that XMOS seems to be a selling point for marketting purposes.

DAC manufacturers in general will be in a similar position to Topping. A lot use XMOS microcontrollers, probably because the example code makes a basic USB to I2S adapter relatively easy, and because it has brand recognition for marketting. Schiit apparently wrote their own code - I don't remember the microcontroller brand. The outliers that have PEQ already tend to be pro audio interfaces rather than pure DACs, and that's because their primary market demands it, especially at the upper end. The return on investment made it worth doing, and there's probably a degree of technology trickling down from the top of the range.

The other thing that's been happening recently is increased availability of USB and Bluetooth chips that include DSP cores at low prices. That's whywe're seeing things like the Moondrop FreeDSP cable for IEMs, and Moondrop Space Travel bluetooth IEMs offering EQ at low cost. If one of these chips provides USB to I2S we will no doubt see more USB DACs with PEQ.

Very interesting summary/writeup, thanks very much!

 

[tjf]

They're starting from very different places - very different hardware capabilities and software platforms.

Wiim are starting with a streamer platform with processing power similar to a phone or Pi. I'm not sure it's running linux, but it's likely as that's what a lot of the streamers run. There are many relatively easy ways to add filters in linux, either at the OS level (alsa config, pipewire, etc.) or as part of the media streamer libraries (gstreamer or similar). You will find similar or more powerful EQ options on free software streaming options like piCorePlayer, Moode, Volumio etc. and threads explaining how to do similar on Pi or similar boards.

Topping are starting with a much less powerful microcontroller from XMOS with a much more limited set of DSP options. From what we've seen looking at firmware update processes for non-Windows computers, or common mistakes in device naming, they were sticking close to the XMOS example code. You need to use a microcontroller with sufficient processing power to process the EQ - much as they had to change to a more powerful microcontroller when they added MQA support. Someone with experience with the XMOS libraries explained here why Topping only apply the DSP to the USB input on the D50 III, which should give some idea of the practical difficulties. They had to add a proprietary way to communicate the DSP settings as UAC2 doesn't have an easy way to do that. This then needs support on the computer side, hence the Windows-only Topping Tune app. Or you stick enough screen and buttons/knobs on it to do the PEQ on the DAC itself. Could they have done it earlier? Certainly, if they thought there was enough demand. I did suggest an alternate firmware for those that didn't want MQA but did want PEQ. Could they have done it differently? Yes - maybe with a separate DSP chip, or moving from XMOS to something closer to streamer hardware. Both of those involve a hardware redesign, and varying degrees of new software work. The counter to this is that XMOS seems to be a selling point for marketting purposes.

DAC manufacturers in general will be in a similar position to Topping. A lot use XMOS microcontrollers, probably because the example code makes a basic USB to I2S adapter relatively easy, and because it has brand recognition for marketting. Schiit apparently wrote their own code - I don't remember the microcontroller brand. The outliers that have PEQ already tend to be pro audio interfaces rather than pure DACs, and that's because their primary market demands it, especially at the upper end. The return on investment made it worth doing, and there's probably a degree of technology trickling down from the top of the range.

The other thing that's been happening recently is increased availability of USB and Bluetooth chips that include DSP cores at low prices. That's whywe're seeing things like the Moondrop FreeDSP cable for IEMs, and Moondrop Space Travel bluetooth IEMs offering EQ at low cost. If one of these chips provides USB to I2S we will no doubt see more USB DACs with PEQ.

Hi - thank you for this background!

I wonder what these PEQ XMOS USB path DSP processing limitations portend for the new Topping D90 III Discrete and the new flagship D900 - which beyond both having a ladder resistor based DAC circuit (catering to the R2R DAC crowd) are claimed to offer PEQ - and the D900 is supposed to offer PEQ for all digital inputs - not just USB????

Hmmm....

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

They're starting from very different places - very different hardware capabilities and software platforms.

Wiim are starting with a streamer platform with processing power similar to a phone or Pi. I'm not sure it's running linux, but it's likely as that's what a lot of the streamers run. There are many relatively easy ways to add filters in linux, either at the OS level (alsa config, pipewire, etc.) or as part of the media streamer libraries (gstreamer or similar). You will find similar or more powerful EQ options on free software streaming options like piCorePlayer, Moode, Volumio etc. and threads explaining how to do similar on Pi or similar boards.

Topping are starting with a much less powerful microcontroller from XMOS with a much more limited set of DSP options. From what we've seen looking at firmware update processes for non-Windows computers, or common mistakes in device naming, they were sticking close to the XMOS example code. You need to use a microcontroller with sufficient processing power to process the EQ - much as they had to change to a more powerful microcontroller when they added MQA support. Someone with experience with the XMOS libraries explained here why Topping only apply the DSP to the USB input on the D50 III, which should give some idea of the practical difficulties. They had to add a proprietary way to communicate the DSP settings as UAC2 doesn't have an easy way to do that. This then needs support on the computer side, hence the Windows-only Topping Tune app. Or you stick enough screen and buttons/knobs on it to do the PEQ on the DAC itself. Could they have done it earlier? Certainly, if they thought there was enough demand. I did suggest an alternate firmware for those that didn't want MQA but did want PEQ. Could they have done it differently? Yes - maybe with a separate DSP chip, or moving from XMOS to something closer to streamer hardware. Both of those involve a hardware redesign, and varying degrees of new software work. The counter to this is that XMOS seems to be a selling point for marketting purposes.

DAC manufacturers in general will be in a similar position to Topping. A lot use XMOS microcontrollers, probably because the example code makes a basic USB to I2S adapter relatively easy, and because it has brand recognition for marketting. Schiit apparently wrote their own code - I don't remember the microcontroller brand. The outliers that have PEQ already tend to be pro audio interfaces rather than pure DACs, and that's because their primary market demands it, especially at the upper end. The return on investment made it worth doing, and there's probably a degree of technology trickling down from the top of the range.

The other thing that's been happening recently is increased availability of USB and Bluetooth chips that include DSP cores at low prices. That's whywe're seeing things like the Moondrop FreeDSP cable for IEMs, and Moondrop Space Travel bluetooth IEMs offering EQ at low cost. If one of these chips provides USB to I2S we will no doubt see more USB DACs with PEQ.

If that’s correct, the obvious choice for Topping would be to go back to the beginning.

Because, as it is, from being at the forefront of pushing excellent quality but cheap DACs, they’re playing catch up to new boys WiiM.

There appears to have been a race to excellence between Topping and SMSL to produce the best measuring DAC as a priority, whilst most of us are just happy with transparency.

Just an opinion. But I think they’ve missed a trick.

 

[gwing]

They are very different products, a DAC is essentially a single purpose fairly generic hardware device with limited firmware and little or nothing in the way of applications whereas a streamer is essentially a small computer running a lot of applications and software but usually also having a DAC and other hardware built in.

Wiim aren't yet in the standalone DAC market, Topping aren't in the network streamer market and I don't see any sign of that changing (yet).

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

They are very different products, a DAC is essentially a single purpose fairly generic hardware device with limited firmware and little or nothing in the way of applications whereas a streamer is essentially a small computer running a lot of applications and software but usually also having a DAC and other hardware built in.

Wiim aren't yet in the standalone DAC market, Topping aren't in the network streamer market and I don't see any sign of that changing (yet).

If I were in the market for a DAC, and I had c.£350 to spend, I’d spend it on the Ultra.

If what people want is a transparent DAC, and are miffed they can’t find one with PEQ and a sub out, the fact that the WiiM is actually also a streamer is surely irrelevant.

I have a WiiM Mini and a Topping DAC/HP amp (EX5, cost me £350). If I didn’t have a DAC, and was looking for one to upgrade the sound on the Mini, and the EX5 was still £350 (it’s now £250), I’d buy the Ultra. Obviously, I’m presuming the Ultra measures as well as we previous WiiMs suggest.

 

[kevinh]

The Wiim ultra get close to what music lovers really need. The PEW needs (IMO) top work at 2 levels. First for Automatic room correction, Second for Program EQ. The program eq was first really address by the Cello Audio Palette, designed by Dick Burwen for his own system and then marketed by Mark Levinson 40 years ago. Later Burwen did a version in software called the Bobcat, Dick is 97 now and retired about 10 years ago the latest version of the soft is marketed by Mark Levinson as Master Class software, for the Mac,

https://www.danielhertz.com/products/master-class

wonderful software, but big limitstion, only runs on a Mac and uses Apple's media player. BTW they have some clips where you can hear how the software helps the sound of the recording. k

If a product like this was offered by Topping or WIIM as the backend to their streamer, with the ability to save the setting for a particular recording it would be perfect. For those of us who have older recordings it would be a godsend. make the Wimm cost $700 and I would run to buy it.

 

[Petrushka]

I don’t know if this is off topic, but I have a bunch of LPs I’d like to convert to FLAC and MP3. In my current arrangement my turntable cannot conveniently be located near my computer.

I’m planning to get an Ultra to support the TT and TV. I have a cheap preamp, but I want something with remote control, something reasonably priced. Ultra seems tho have been designed to meet my wish list.

I’m wondering if I could use a Wiim Mini at the computer to capture LPs.
I see on Amazon a Toslink to USB adapter specifically intended for recording.

I just remembered I also have a 25 foot optical cable, which could probably reach from the Ultra to the computer.

 

[staticV3]

I’m wondering if I could use a Wiim Mini at the computer to capture LPs.
I see on Amazon a Toslink to USB adapter specifically intended for recording.

A WiiM plus a Toslink to USB converter could be used to digitize LPs.

Not sure which adapter you're looking at on Amazon, but the $30 UR23 would do the job perfectly.

 

[Petrushka]

A WiiM plus a Toslink to USB converter could be used to digitize LPs.

Not sure which adapter you're looking at on Amazon, but the $30 UR23 would do the job perfectly.

I see one for $20, but if I can get past the crappy Amazon search, I’ll look at others. It would be pure digital, so differences should be inconsequential.

 

[Pritaudio]

No AirPlay 2 on the ultra according to their website.

Also, the pro models weren’t able to stream Apple Music lossless via airplay anyway.
Nobody does Apple Apple Music lossless as an endpoint in hifi. Not even Sonos.
I hear some android devices can, but it may depend on which operating system is used.

 

[tjf]

No AirPlay 2 on the ultra according to their website.

Also, the pro models weren’t able to stream Apple Music lossless via airplay anyway.
Nobody does Apple Apple Music lossless as an endpoint in hifi. Not even Sonos.
I hear some android devices can, but it may depend on which operating system is used.

Are you saying that the Sonos "S2" App decodes it's native Apple Music platform as AAC?

I thought the S2 App on Sonos was capable of 24/48 as a max decode rate...

So at a minimum I assumed Apple Music on a Sonos Port or Amp would at 16 bit ALAC at least -- am I wrong?

Or have I misread what you meant - were your strictly speaking of the Sonos device as an Airplay endpoint -- rather than using the Sonos App based capability with Apple Music?

 

[openvista]

Are you saying that the Sonos "S2" App decodes it's native Apple Music platform as AAC?

I thought the S2 App on Sonos was capable of 24/48 as a max decode rate...

So at a minimum I assumed Apple Music on a Sonos Port or Amp would at 16 bit ALAC at least -- am I wrong?

Or have I misread what you meant - were your strictly speaking of the Sonos device as an Airplay endpoint -- rather than using the Sonos App based capability with Apple Music?

Only lossless if AirPlay 2 is initiated from macOS system output, not from the icon inside the Music app. Even this is limited to 16/44. If Airplayed from iOS then it’s transcoded to 256 AAC.

See: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/apple-music-lossless-mess-part-2-airplay-r1026/