WiiM Ultra with ou without the AMP ? The sound of Amps ?

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

God morning from France, it is a sunny day over here

I was going to buy a WiiM Ultra Amp,
then I changed my mind thinking that it would be more flexible
to buy separate components, Amp, PréAmp, Dac, Streamer
but when I read the WiiM Ultra Amp test on this website
I think that I might complicate things and spend more money
without getting a better sound ?

However, from what I hear and read here the sound of amps
is a fact and now I wonder whether I should rather choose
to buy the WiiM Ultra without the Amp and be free to choose
and change Amps in the futur as I like ?

Or,
if I buy the WiiM Ultra with its Amp,
can I easily bypass the internal Amp of the WiiM
to use other Amps ?

Hope this question will help others here as well.

Thank you. Raymond

 

[voodooless]

However, from what I hear and read here the sound of amps
is a fact

No, it's not, nor is that generally what you read here at ASR. Sound quality should not be a deciding factor in your quest.

 

[JSmith]

buy the WiiM Ultra without the Amp

Depends... if the integrated amp has enough power for your speakers, then there would likely be no need for a separate amp.

If you need more power, then get separates.


JSmith

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

Thank you. So all this talk about tube amps giving a more soft sound
and class D giving a more dry analytic sound is not so, if I understand right ?

Power ?

will my futur WiiM Ultra AMP 2x 100 watts be enough for my :

speakers PhonOPhone G1, 85 dB, 8 ohms, 100 wtts

and Antal Triangle Antal EX 91 db, 8 ohms, 40-20000 hz

in a room measuring :
- 6 meters = 19,69 feet (length)
- 5 meters = 16,40 feet (width)
- 3 meters = 9,84 feet (height)

thank you so much.

 

[voodooless]

Tube amps generally are just poor amps. They have more distortion, and often their frequency response is not linear. Those things may be audible, especially the non-linear frequency response. So yes, poorly designed amps can be audible. But the frequency response can easily be shaped with EQ, so you can just tailor the sound to your liking that way. Much more efficient and convenient, and no need to buy a poorly performing amp.

will my futur WiiM Ultra AMP 2x 100 watts be enough for my :

speakers PhonOPhone G1, 85 dB, 8 ohms, 100 wtts

This says they reach MaxSPL at about 70W, so yeah, 100W is plenty.

and Antal Triangle Antal EX 91 db, 8 ohms, 40-20000 hz

They are more like 4 Ohm, really, so you have much more power available. Also, for these, the amp should have plenty of power.

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

Thank you Voodooless and JSmith for your help on this. This makes the whole matter a lot easier, I will buy my WiiM Ultra Amp since there are so many great comments for it here, of course in this price range.

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

And yes, it makes sens, using the EQ and thank your for the article on my speakers, they cost me 300 euros with new subs

 

[Wolf11Man]

The sound of amplifiers is a quite complicated thing. I'm trying to explain it very neutral, ignoring price, look and feel of the amps. Like you not knowing what amp is powering your speakers. So you can not get biased by looks, weight or size.
In general, any modern high quality amp should sound identical. Exception: If you reach the power limits, a stronger amp will stay clean longer, but this is not sound, it is a clipping amp because of limited power supply or safety features stepping in. Power hungry speakers will show this sooner than for example a highly efficient horn speaker.
There are €15 D-amp modules around, mostly the TPA3116D2, which, powered by a laptop supply, will sound like a million $$. Anoying if you have thousands worth of heavy amps in your home, like me, and do A-B testing. What you hear simply doesn't match what you expect and have believed for ages.

Such things like tube amps are different. They reproduce wrong with the intention to make things sound better. Which often only works on certain speakers or with some genre of music.

A majority of older amps sounds simply awfull, compared to a carefully selected €100 D-amp with a good, matching power supply. Have a look at the reviews here at ASR.
Even old amps that many call iconic or "classics" may dissapoint.
I started listening while comparing the technical side around 1975. You could really hear differences with any two amps you compared. With very expensive gear, sometimes it got hard to find a "better or worse, but even quite expensive consumer class had huge differences. Some brands that some consider the holy grail are just loosers today.

If you want it very short: Most good, modern amps are 100% OK, it is the speakers that make the difference. Even the digital source is less important than you changing the angle at which your speakers point, by only 5 degrees.

Last you may ask: Are expensive HIFI products all rip off's? No. Diamonds don't sound or taste, but some people spend millions for a few of them and put them around their wifes neck. A similar concept...

 

[somebodyelse]

Or,
if I buy the WiiM Ultra with its Amp,
can I easily bypass the internal Amp of the WiiM
to use other Amps ?

The Amp Ultra has USB which can be used for audio output, so you could attach either a USB DAC or an amp that has a USB input. (source: 'Versatile Connectivity' diagram at https://www.wiimhome.com/wiim-amp-ultra/)

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

Thank you so much for such a lengthy answer to us all, I am so grateful to read things that makes sens to me and that disturbs others

There are €15 D-amp modules around, mostly the TPA3116D2, which, powered by a laptop supply, will sound like a million $$.

yes this is what AudioPhonics here in France is trying to tell me, and that lots of money for an amp today is not necessary. They also sell their amplifiers without any outer castings, all open, that costs very little money.

So then is the question, should I rather buy a 50 or 100 dollar amp of such a TPA3116D2 chip,
or should I go with the WiiM ultra amp ?

After all, the WiiM for a beginner is a handy package, then I can play around with some €15 D-amps.

This is a real revolution in fidelity music, soon we will have it all inside a smartphone !

 

[voodooless]

I think you should consider where you want your journey to go. You first came here with the idea of building two massive 6x15" bass towers

I'm not saying the WiiM Amp Ultra is a bad amp (quite the opposite), but if you plan to really expand your system with multiple subwoofers, there are possibly more sensible options, like the already mentioned MiniDSP Flex, the WiiM Mini, and one of those Class D amps (I would not buy the cheapest ones, try E3 or the Audiophonics branded ones). But that will cost about twice as much as the Wiim Amp Ultra. And at that price, you are really close to the price of a decent entry-level AVR like Denon X3800h, which has a lot more potential options. If you get one second-hand, as I did, it's an even better deal. The Denon already comes with decent room correction (Audyssey MultEQ XT-32), can connect 4 subs, and is upgradable to Dirac Live, DL Bass Control, or Dirac A.R.T. at a later point in time.

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

Thank you voodooless. Actually, yes, after my experience at a friends house but he was a student of audio and had amazing software and techniques so now I understand that his sound was not only about having many subs with lots of woodfibers, but also about his knowledge in measure and correction

So I calmed down a bit.

What I really am looking for is to sit down and "feel" the musiciens in front of me .
I will probably start out with the WiiM and then I can play around with other gears later on.

With the WiiM I will get my music back with little hassle, maybe in the middle of march, I have been without this for 3 years because of renovating and moving.

I also plan to try DIY open baffles.

To avoid complicate things, at the moment I will stick to the winner of WiiM, thanks to the discussions here on this forum. It is the best forum I have found so far, recommended by Audiophonics in Bordeaux.

Thank your for your support everybody.

 

[voodooless]

I also plan to try DIY open baffles.

In that case, an active DSP system is best suited. That may point towards separate components, so you can swap out the amp for the active DSP amps later... Just something to think about.

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

Thank you.
The wiim will not work with DIY open baffles ?
What is this active DSP system all about ?
I tried to understand with IA but do not get it totally.
And is it expensive to set up a DSP "system" ?

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

It's a technology that uses digital processing to improve the sound quality, accuracy, and overall listening experience. Think of it like a super-smart audio engineer, tweaking the sound in real-time to make it sound its best.

Some common tasks a DSP can do for HiFi and music:

- Room correction: adjusts the sound to compensate for the listening room's acoustic quirks
- Equalization: fine-tunes the tone to match your preferences or the recording's intent
- Crossovers: divides the audio signal between speakers (e.g., subwoofer, tweeters)
- Time alignment: ensures all frequencies arrive at your ears simultaneously
- Up-sampling: improves audio quality by increasing the sample rate

DSPs can be found in various HiFi components, like:

- AV receivers: home theater systems
- Streamers: digital music players
- DACs (Digital-to-Analog Converters): convert digital audio to analog
- Active speakers: self-contained speakers with built-in amplification and processing

The goal of a DSP is to make the music sound as good as possible, with improved clarity, depth, and immersion.

 

[voodooless]

Thank you.
The wiim will not work with DIY open baffles ?

Sure, it will. For a passive system, it may work. Just note that if the bass is also openbaffle, it will be super inefficient, and then 100W might be not enough.

What is this active DSP system all about ?

You have an amp for every driver, and the DSP takes care of the crossovers. Generally, the woofer amplifier is a lot bigger, because it's way less efficient and there is more content down there as well.

And is it expensive to set up a DSP "system" ?

It's all relative. Look for Hypex Fusion DSP amps, for instance. They offer relatively good value and are of good quality. Note that a passive crossover for an open baffle system isn't super cheap either. It needs large inductors, and those are not cheap. And if you want to experiment, you need several sets.

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

Where are the advantages in terms of sound with a DSP system for my present speakers over the wiim ultra amp ? The open baffle project is for next year, but I understand what you are saying, buy something that you can grow with for the day you need more power.

 

[voodooless]

Where are the advantages in terms of sound with a DSP system for my present speakers over the wiim ultra amp ?

Who knows... Potentially, you could do better.. But don't forget that the WiiM also has EQ, so you can correct some of the issues with that already.

In the end, the most important factor here is skill. If you don't know how to design a speaker, it's going to be a rough ride, and the results may not be very good, despite the tools and components. An open baffle is an even more challenging project.

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

I understand. I will now buy the wiim and start to listen.
Then I can play around with a second system, DSP and building speakers on the side, since not very expensive. Thank you so much.

 

[gwing]

It sounds to me that you want to play and tinker in the future rather than having one neat and tidy integrated box to enjoy and accept as it is.

Perhaps consider getting the Wiim Ultra pre-amp and pairing that with really good but inexpensive power amps. (such as 3E or Fosi V3 monoblocks). Or pair it with one of the Hypex or Purifi based amps Audiophonics sell if you really have an itch to spend more. Personally I'd get the cheaper power now and only go for the alternative amps *after* having committed to those open baffle speakers or some other design with outrageous amplifier requirements.