WiiM Ultra with 2 FOSI V3 MONO or an AB amplifier ?

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

Hallo again, from France.

I am new here and read lots about cheaper class D amps being
Tiresome to listen to on the long run.

I think the discussion is impossible to resolve,
the only way to find out is to find a similar AB amp
to the 2 FOSI V3 MONO amps I will buy for my
WiiM ultra and listen for myself.

But which AB amp can I find for maximum 500€
with at least 100 watts power for my WiiM Ultra ?

Thank You. Raymond

 

[l_lama]

100W into 8 or 4 Ohm ?

 

[RandomEar]

Hallo again, from France.

I am new here and read lots about cheaper class D amps being
Tiresome to listen to on the long run.

That's mostly people's imagination running wild. Older or todays cheapest class D amps lacked post filter feedback (PFFB), which could cause them to present an increased treble response on some speakers. That may have been audible in some cases. With modern class D amps using PFFB, they offer a flat frequency response and almost negligible distortion. That means they will all sound fine and actually should sound identical to good class AB amps in controlled testing.

I think the discussion is impossible to resolve,

It's not, luckily. Extremely precise measurements have already solved this for us.

the only way to find out is to find a similar AB amp
to the 2 FOSI V3 MONO amps I will buy for my
WiiM ultra and listen for myself.

You can try. Remember that good testing has to be level matched and blind - ideally double blind. Otherwise, bias will dictate what you think to hear.

But which AB amp can I find for maximum 500€
with at least 100 watts power for my WiiM Ultra ?

Thank You. Raymond

A used Yamaha A-S301 or A-S501 could be an option.

 

[l_lama]

Pre-owned Rotel power amp, have a look are review here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/rotel-rb-1070-amplifier-review.41193/
Also monitor hifishark.com and audio-markt.de for good deals.

 

[gwing]

Can I try to save you wasting quite a lot of money with such a test?

Essentially there will be one of two results.
a) You do a fair test i.e. measured and matched output music levels and a blind test so that you aren't influenced by preconceptions. In this case the two amps are certain to be indistinguishable, unless you pick a bad AB amp and then , if it is bad enough, you might genuinely hear something, but even then you probably won't.
b) You don't do a fair test because that would be too much work. In this case you will most probably pick the amp that is the loudest or instead perhaps the one that you simply expect to be the best.

So my recommendation is to not spend any money buying an amp but borrow one from a friend. Then do a blind comparison test ensuring that you have set the monos you purchased to a very slighter volume level than the friend's amp - this will ensure that you prefer the monos you have bought, will not suffer buyer's remorse, and don't have to waste money on switching amps ;-)

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

Thank you so much Gwing,
I appreciate your humour and
you saved me money and also time !

 

[l_lama]

Yeah, you can also ask your local retailer if they would lend you one to compare vs. equipment you already possess.

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

Thank you but my dealer is in Bordeaux, Audiophonics
and do not sell over the counter, perhaps they can lend
me a pair ?
I would prefer to buy locally and pay cash but the staff
at Audiophonics is so helpful that I cannnot see how not
to buy from them.

Almost all my questions has been resolved
thanks to this amazing website with such
knowledgeable people,

I think I will be happy now, at least to start with
the WiiM Ultra and the 2 mono Fosi V3
and having 2 monos is way sexier
than having one stereoamp as friends pass by

Five years ago, all I bought was 3 alientek amps
and a RME Digiface that I will now sell.

And of course, speakers,
the DIY line arrays a friend sold me
and I also bought for 300€
a pair of PhonoPhone G1, 85db, 8 ohms, 100 watts
with the subspeakers replaced.

Cannot wait to see
what such a thing will sound like.

 

[d00]

I had a WiiM Ultra Amp for a longer time, then WiiM Vibelink Amp. All the time WiiM Ultra as a source. I also had Fosi V3 Mono 2x for a while. And I don't know... but every time I back to the AB class (I have CA CXA61) it's suddenly a different play... as really stronger. Vibelink seems to have 100W of power and CA 60W of power, but I fell like CA plays noticeably stronger. Maybe it's just that the impedance of my speakers has better connection with the CA amplifier but I had the same feeling with the Yamaha AS-701. And when I go back to WiiM Vibelink or Amp Ultra, I feel the difference again.

Yes, class D is economical, it is small, minimalist, you can fit it on any cabinet, but so what? The matter is about audio, it is supposed to play, not look.

And to be clear - I'm not an audiovoodoo, nor do I buy equipment for tens of thousands of dollars. I have cheap equipment, but it's just that the AB class plays differently - better for me.

 

[RandomEar]

I had a WiiM Ultra Amp for a longer time, then WiiM Vibelink Amp. All the time WiiM Ultra as a source. I also had Fosi V3 Mono 2x for a while. And I don't know... but every time I back to the AB class (I have CA CXA61) it's suddenly a different play... as really stronger. Vibelink seems to have 100W of power and CA 60W of power, but I fell like CA plays noticeably stronger.

The Cambridge Audio amps tested on ASR perform OK but not great. It's still unlikely that there's an immediate audible difference between your CXA61 and the V3 Mono. Unless you level matched precisely and switched amps within a couple of seconds, you can't identify small audible differences anyway.

If you have the feeling that the CA played "stronger", you very likely just played it louder. Louder almost always sounds better.

Maybe it's just that the impedance of my speakers has better connection with the CA amplifier but I had the same feeling with the Yamaha AS-701. And when I go back to WiiM Vibelink or Amp Ultra, I feel the difference again.

There is no "better connection" to your speakers, this is just... not a real thing.

Yes, class D is economical, it is small, minimalist, you can fit it on any cabinet, but so what? The matter is about audio, it is supposed to play, not look.

And to be clear - I'm not an audiovoodoo, nor do I buy equipment for tens of thousands of dollars. I have cheap equipment, but it's just that the AB class plays differently - better for me.

There's no inherent difference between the sound of class A, class AB or class D amps. It's all in your head.

 

[RaymondFromThePyrénéés]

I appreciate this discussion. Thank you.

 

[d00]

There is no "better connection" to your speakers, this is just... not a real thing.

The volume is the same, tested with a physical volume metre. How can there be no such thing? Erin himself recorded a video about why amplifiers sound different. He hears it too. And a lot of people in the comments. It's about the impedance of the columns.

 

[Mort]

The volume is the same, tested with a physical volume metre. How can there be no such thing? Erin himself recorded a video about why amplifiers sound different. He hears it too. And a lot of people in the comments. It's about the impedance of the columns.

Erin also recommended low output impedence like class D.

 

[d00]

Erin also recommended low output impedence like class D.

OK. I don't deny it. However, I described my feelings about the AB vs D class. I'm not a class D opponent, but I've repeatedly felt the difference (better IMO) in playing in class AB.

 

[RandomEar]

It's about the impedance of the columns.

I'm sorry, but what does that even mean?

Tube amps or old and/or badly designed amps can sound different. For most modern transistor amps, you will be extremely hard pressed to differentiate them in a well controlled test. Load dependent cheap class D designs might be an exception due to them not having a flat frequency response on all speakers.

Volume matching using a sound meter is usually not precise enough, you need to measure the output using a voltmeter. Also, again, if you need minutes or hours to switch the amps, the test result will be meaningless because our echoic memory is only good for seconds.

 

[VintageFlanker]

But which AB amp can I find for maximum 500€

Better than two V3 Mono ? Absolutely none.

 

[d00]

I'm sorry, but what does that even mean?

Tube amps or old and/or badly designed amps can sound different. For most modern transistor amps, you will be extremely hard pressed to differentiate them in a well controlled test. Load dependent cheap class D designs might be an exception due to them not having a flat frequency response on all speakers.

Volume matching using a sound meter is usually not precise enough, you need to measure the output using a voltmeter. Also, again, if you need minutes or hours to switch the amps, the test result will be meaningless because our echoic memory is only good for seconds.

 

[RandomEar]

Erin explains in detail that a flat output impedance is important for an amplifier to have a flat frequency response curve. Nobody denies that. His counter-examples are mostly tube amps, which aren't relevant to this discussion. The amp manufacturers provide the frequency response curve and revievers like Amir measure it. If the curve is flat inside the audible region for multiple (simulated) speaker impedances, the amps output impedance is also flat.

This video does not prove that your two amps sound different. There is nothing about "impedance of the columns" or "better connections" in there. Erin isn't wrong, but his video does not support your claims.

 

[Totemis]

Hallo again, from France.

I am new here and read lots about cheaper class D amps being
Tiresome to listen to on the long run.

I think the discussion is impossible to resolve,
the only way to find out is to find a similar AB amp
to the 2 FOSI V3 MONO amps I will buy for my
WiiM ultra and listen for myself.

But which AB amp can I find for maximum 500€
with at least 100 watts power for my WiiM Ultra ?

Thank You. Raymond

Bonjour Raymond ; The most important are the speakers ! Why an AB amp ? A Topping mini 300 amp class D with his 140 w, small price and better performance than Fosi V3 is at my opinion a very good choice...
Put your money for speakers like ascilab C6B ...
Have fun

 

[V.b.]

Wiim ultra and Fosi v3 mono are the worst pair you can choose.

1. Ultra has only RCA outputs but V3 mono RCA performance is 6db less.

2. If you want to place them near speakers you have noise issues with long RCA cables.

3. You can make custom rca to xlr cables, but recent v3 have lower gain, you may not be able to drive them properly.

Just get a Topping PA7 or a 3e A7.