Wiim Ultra vs Wiim Ultra + External Dac (Blind Test Results)

[antcollinet]

Any further suggestions are welcome.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

This is *massively* more likely to explain it

Without denying that confounding factors may have influenced the results,

Than this;

completely dismissing the participants' ability to detect differences could overlook subtle nuances that technical measurements don't fully capture.

 

[BDWoody]

Without denying that confounding factors may have influenced the results, completely dismissing the participants' ability to detect differences could overlook subtle nuances that technical measurements don't fully capture.

How well do you understand the measurements?

Listening tests often reveal small subjective differences in sound that may not appear in purely technical measurements.

That has never been demonstrated with proper controls. Ever.

People often notice subtle tonal variations, dynamics, or soundstage that can differentiate equipment, even when objective measurements indicate near-identical performance.

Yes, when they don't use proper controls.

If technical measurements were the only factor considered, many DACs and speakers would sound exactly the same, and that’s clearly not the general opinion.

DACs are electronics that can be fully characterized with measurements.

Speakers are motors, and not what we are talking about here.

Therefore, I believe subjective listening experiences should also be considered when considering audio equipment, alongside the technical data.

Yes, subjective evaluation with appropriate controls, otherwise you are more likely to end up with less than useful results, to yourself or anyone else.

You say you are new to audiophile, yet don't seem willing to listen to what may actually help you move beyond just believing nice stories.

 

[BDWoody]

Thanks to everyone for the feedback. I have decided to redo the same test with instructional and recreational purposes exclusively and electrically balance the output levels of the DACs to compare results. Any further suggestions are welcome.

Make it double blind, and make it AB/X.

 

[Mr.A]

Better bass and slightly clearer are symptomatic of one level being slightly louder than another.
Keith

For the sake of hypothesizing, let’s assume that the volume levels of both DACs were not perfectly balanced.

In that case, there would be a 50% probability that the WiiM’s volume was higher.

In that scenario (50% probable) what would be the explanation for the listeners preferring the Topping DAC?

 

[SIY]

For the sake of hypothesizing, let’s assume that the volume levels of both DACs were not perfectly balanced.

In that case, there would be a 50% probability that the WiiM’s volume was higher.

In that scenario (50% probable) what would be the explanation for the listeners preferring the Topping DAC?

For your next try, level match properly AND double blind properly. That way, you won’t have to try rationalizing why the sloppy controls weren’t important.

Look, you gave this a good first try. Much more than others would, and my congratulations for that! Tighten things up for the next round and we’ll have something to discuss on the technical end.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

For the sake of hypothesizing, let’s assume that the volume levels of both DACs were not perfectly balanced.

In that case, there would be a 50% probability that the WiiM’s volume was higher.

In that scenario (50% probable) what would be the explanation for the listeners preferring the Topping DAC?

That seems like an incorrect application of statistics to me.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

For the sake of hypothesizing, let’s assume that the volume levels of both DACs were not perfectly balanced.

In that case, there would be a 50% probability that the WiiM’s volume was higher.

In that scenario (50% probable) what would be the explanation for the listeners preferring the Topping DAC?

Well, what if it was the Topping?

I don't understand why you're coming up with hypothetical scenarios when it's clear your test lacks convincing data.

That said, I think it's great that you conducted the test and even better that you're planning to redo it with proper controls. If you follow through and do it right, you'd be the first to document a suggested audible difference between two seemingly flawless DACs. I fully support the effort and look forward to seeing new data like this.

 

[antcollinet]

Something that has not been discussed so far as I've seen.

The (often slectable) DAC filters can make an audible difference - especially if a non sampling theorem compatible one is selected (slow rolloff and/or poor attenuation). They both need to be the sharp/fast (normally default) filter.

I don't know if the ultra has selectable filters (EDIT : yes it does - or at least the pro and pro+ do), but the D90 does. It should be (and probably was) left on the default F3.

 

[Nopiano]

For the sake of hypothesizing, let’s assume that the volume levels of both DACs were not perfectly balanced.

In that case, there would be a 50% probability that the WiiM’s volume was higher.

In that scenario (50% probable) what would be the explanation for the listeners preferring the Topping DAC?

There wouldn’t be one. The naysayers/objectivists will insist that the preferred Topping sounds exactly the same but was fractionally louder. Not loud enough to sound louder, but enough to sound better. Hence your results.

I say let’s all turn up our systems a mere fraction and save all this upgrading nonsense! It doesn’t sound quite so logical then, does it? ;-)

BTW, I would not have your tolerance of some of the challenges you’ve received here, but kudos to you for taking it on board and for contemplating a rematch!

 

[Mr.A]

DAC’s Blind ABX Testing

 

[Purité Audio]

That boy knows which side his bread is buttered.
Keit

 

[SIY]

Yes, that has been extensively critiqued. It was an easy cheat.

But again, spend your time setting up proper controls.

 

[staticV3]

DAC’s Blind ABX Testing

Extensively discussed in this thread:

GoldenSounds passes apparently ABX test for DACs (NOT Really)

Spoiler: Apparently he does it by hearing above 20kHz. MOD EDIT: GS only tests two different filters created with a software program. At no time he tests different DACs let alone passing such a difference. Edit: The sharp filter, the sinc-L, is very similar to the MScaler x2 filter, so...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Soniclife]

I say let’s all turn up our systems a mere fraction and save all this upgrading nonsense!

The wisdom of the Tap, works for me.

 

[Mr.A]

That boy knows which side his bread is buttered.

Using the ad hominem fallacy signals a lack of objective grounds to refute a given conclusion.

Let alone the fact that previously you conveniently ignored responding to what the explanation would be for the 50% probability that the WiiM’s volume level was higher, yet listeners still preferred the Topping DAC 72% of the time.

 

[Mr.A]

Yes, that has been extensively critiqued. It was an easy cheat.

But again, spend your time setting up proper controls.

Still waiting for an explanation as to what the reasoning would be for the 50% probability that the WiiM’s volume level was higher, yet listeners still preferred the Topping DAC 72% of the time.

 

[JustJones]

Still waiting for an explanation as to what the reasoning would be for the 50% probability that the WiiM’s volume level was higher, yet listeners still preferred the Topping DAC 72% of the time.

I haven't seen any evidence that the Topping was preferred in any proper controlled test but since nothing is 50/50 in reality the Topping volume was higher 75% of the time.

 

[Mr.A]

I haven't seen any evidence that the Topping was preferred in any proper controlled test but since nothing is 50/50 in reality the Topping volume was higher 75% of the time.

Ridiculous and nonsensical.

You demand perfect scientific evidence for propositions you don’t seem to like, yet with complete ease, you assume and take as valid baseless propositions, pulled out of thin air, that conveniently support your position, like the Topping had the higher volume 75% of the time.

 

[JustJones]

You did what a lot don't, you gave a good faith effort and had fun. You admit it wasn't scientific but anecdotal so why not accept the kudos for your effort and move on or incorporate some of the excellent ideas to improve next time.