Wiim Ultra vs Wiim Ultra + External Dac (Blind Test Results)

[Mr.A]

Send the Topping DAC back and replace it with an RME ADI-2 DAC FS while using the "Loudness" software control to tweak the sound just the way you like it. You won't believe how much better it sounds.

Thanks for the recommendation! We're actually considering returning the Topping DAC and trying something different, like the Ares II, a Geshelli Labs DAC, or even a multi-bit DAC to run similar tests. We're still undecided, but it would be interesting to see how these compare in our setup before making a final decision.

I wasn’t familiar with the 'Loudness' software on the RME ADI-2 DAC FS, it sounds interesting. What’s been your experience with it? Would you recommend it? And how easy is it to use?

 

[Emlin]

Testing out different gear and comparing their performance is one of the most enjoyable and engaging parts of the hobby. Even if the results are anecdotal, it’s all about the experience and the fun that comes with discovering subtle differences and nuances in sound.

I'm sorry, but anecdotal evidence really rules out the discovery of anything, let alone the subtle and nuanced.

 

[Mr.A]

I believe that, despite the thoroughness of your test, you missed a valuable opportunity by not including photos of the setup, measuring equipment, the room, and listening positions.

It’s unfortunate because the results seem intriguing and differ from my own experiences with DACs. I would have appreciated seeing more compelling evidence to truly feel "disrupted" by the findings.

And yes, as others have noted, using an SPL meter for calibration isn't precise enough for this purpose. Even slight variations in microphone positioning can significantly affect the readings.

Thanks for the feedback! You're right, I missed the opportunity to include photos, which would have added more context and clarity to the test. Next time, I'll make sure to document everything more thoroughly, including the setup, room, and equipment used. Regarding the SPL meter, I understand that it's not the most precise tool, especially with the sensitivity to microphone positioning, so I’ll consider more accurate calibration methods in future tests.

 

[Mr.A]

Sounds like you need to have another DAC party.

You should because with a more scientific method I’m interested in the results.

That’s the plan! We’re definitely up for another DAC party. While we aim to improve the method and make it as scientific as possible, the main goal is to have fun, explore, and discover new things along the way. It’s all part of the experience, and we’re excited to see what the next round of testing reveals.

 

[Mr.A]

Looking forward to the follow up test and also some photos of the setup with those Funktion One speakers

Absolutely, we’ll make sure to include photos of how the system is set up with the Funktion One speakers in the follow-up test.
Looking forward to sharing the details and seeing what we can discover this time around

 

[Mr.A]

I appreciate you doing this. A lot of people talk a lot with no evidence.


Do they know if they are listening to A or B? If so, it's easy to be consistent and to pick A (or B) every time.


What does "incorrect" mean? If I understand the test, you asking their opinion and maybe he/she prefers that recording with B even if A is preferred with the other recordings.


Just FYI - With an ABX test, the listener can switch freely between A, B, and X (not as practical with a group or panel) before deciding if X is A or B. The test is just to see if there is a statistical difference (with multiple trials and X assigned randomly). It doesn't ask which is best. (But there ARE right or wrong answers... You either get X right or wrong with each trial.)

in the test, listeners didn’t know whether they were hearing A or B. We also alternated the WiiM between A and B to keep the test as random as possible. The goal was to determine if they could consistently distinguish between the two DACs and whether the one that sounded better to them was also the one with better measurements and the higher price tag.

 

[Mr.A]

I'm sorry, but anecdotal evidence really rules out the discovery of anything, let alone the subtle and nuanced.

I respect your opinion, but I don’t entirely agree. While anecdotal evidence may not be as scientifically rigorous, it can still provide valuable insights, especially in a subjective hobby like audio. For many of us, the fun lies in the experience and personal discoveries, even if they’re not backed by hard data

 

[Emlin]

I respect your opinion, but I don’t entirely agree. While anecdotal evidence may not be as scientifically rigorous, it can still provide valuable insights, especially in a subjective hobby like audio. For many of us, the fun lies in the experience and personal discoveries, even if they’re not backed by hard data

But what have you actually discovered? Nothing, except that you enjoyed discovering nothing of worth.

 

[Mr.A]

But what have you actually discovered? Nothing, except that you enjoyed discovering nothing of worth.

In a "Dac Party" not fully scientific test, 72% of the time, listeners chose the DAC with the best measurements and the higher price tag over another cheaper one as the one that sounded better to them.

Interestingly, when it came to a professional musician, the preference for this DAC increased to 90%.

If that doesn't mean much to you, that's perfectly fine. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything—just sharing an anecdote.

 

[amper42]

I wasn’t familiar with the 'Loudness' software on the RME ADI-2 DAC FS, it sounds interesting. What’s been your experience with it? Would you recommend it? And how easy is it to use?

Most well engineered DAC's sound very similar but the RME ADI-2 DAC FS takes music to a whole new level. The "Loudness" controls offer the ability to dial in custom Bass and Treble settings when playing music at lower volumes so you get the same dynamic punch and kick as when playing loud. You control where and if they kick in and at what volume. It's pretty great to be able to dial in the exact sound you want. After you become familiar with it, it's really hard to be satisfied with any other DAC.

You want more bass punch? no problem. Speaker sounds distant and you want a more up front sound? No problem. Whatever sound you desire the RME "Loudness" feature can get you there AND you can try it in real-time while listening to your favorite music. It's phenomenally good!

 

[Mr.A]

Most well engineered DAC's sound very similar but the RME ADI-2 DAC FS takes music to a whole new level. The "Loudness" controls offer the ability to dial in custom Bass and Treble settings when playing music at lower volumes so you get the same dynamic punch and kick as when playing loud. You control where and if they kick in and at what volume. It's pretty great to be able to dial in the exact sound you want. After you become familiar with it, it's really hard to be satisfied with any other DAC.

You want more bass punch? no problem. Speaker sounds distant and you want a more up front sound? No problem. Whatever sound you desire the RME "Loudness" feature can get you there AND you can try it in real-time while listening to your favorite music. It's phenomenally good!


View attachment 399163

That sounds amazing! Is the 'Loudness' feature on the RME ADI-2 DAC FS easy to use? Does it come with some presets, or do you have to adjust everything manually ? It sounds like a powerful tool, but I’m worried it might be challenging for me to get the most out of it if it´s not very intuitive.

 

[antcollinet]

In a "Dac Party" not fully scientific test, 72% of the time

And even though this was not fully scientific, even then this is not a statistically relevant percentage. It could easily be reached by random chance - a coin toss. The statistics of this stuff is counter intuitive.

Further - as I understand from your test description, each track was only judged once for each listener. It doesn't seem possible to make that statistically relevant.

Your objective is having fun - that is fine. But you are not discovering anything of any value.

 

[amper42]

That sounds amazing! Is the 'Loudness' feature on the RME ADI-2 DAC FS easy to use? Does it come with some presets, or do you have to adjust everything manually ? It sounds like a powerful tool, but I’m worried it might be challenging for me to get the most out of it if it´s not very intuitive.

It's idiot proof. Even I can use it.

You download the software on your computer or iPad then plug into your RME DAC. Launch the app. Dial in where you want bass, treble and at what volume it starts (the effects automatically decrease as volume increases). Start playing your favorite music and adjust the bass and treble to your desired spot. It's that easy. It remembers that setting and as long as "Loudness" is engaged on the remote it uses your "Loudness" settings. If you press the loudness button again the DAC reverts back to flat. You can change the settings at anytime. Once you try it you'll be wondering why you need anything else.

 

[antcollinet]

Most well engineered DAC's sound very similar but the RME ADI-2 DAC FS takes music to a whole new level. The "Loudness" controls offer the ability to dial in custom Bass and Treble settings when playing music at lower volumes so you get the same dynamic punch and kick as when playing loud. You control where and if they kick in and at what volume. It's pretty great to be able to dial in the exact sound you want. After you become familiar with it, it's really hard to be satisfied with any other DAC.

You want more bass punch? no problem. Speaker sounds distant and you want a more up front sound? No problem. Whatever sound you desire the RME "Loudness" feature can get you there AND you can try it in real-time while listening to your favorite music. It's phenomenally good!


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Which is fine - but that has nothing to do with the DAC performance. It is about applying DSP to alter the sound upfront of the DAC.

Just as my MiniDSP can also do DSP room correction, and make a huge improvement to the sound that way (I think the RME can do this also). But neither of these things have any bearing on the statemnet that well measuring DACs sound the same. Of course they don't if you DSP the sound up front either in the same box, or in the computer before sending to the DAC.

 

[Emlin]

In a "Dac Party" not fully scientific test, 72% of the time, listeners chose the DAC with the best measurements and the higher price tag over another cheaper one as the one that sounded better to them.

Interestingly, when it came to a professional musician, the preference for this DAC increased to 90%.

If that doesn't mean much to you, that's perfectly fine. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything—just sharing an anecdote.

They were not properly level matched and there are plenty of other things that could/would have influenced you supposed findings, whoever the listeners may have been.

So your findings are of no meaning to me, and should not be to anyone else. Especially when weighed against all of the properly conducted tests that show that yours are totally wrong.

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence, and you are extraordinarily far from having provided such.

 

[Leeken]

Interesting that you use the funktion ones,two of the best pa’s I’ve heard used them,the last in a really dingy underground vaulted warehouse which had zero rights to sound so good,4 stacks of resolution with all the bass cabs etc,ears didn’t even hurt the next day.

 

[amper42]

Which is fine - but that has nothing to do with the DAC performance. It is about applying DSP to alter the sound upfront of the DAC.

Just as my MiniDSP can also do DSP room correction, and make a huge improvement to the sound that way (I think the RME can do this also). But neither of these things have any bearing on the statemnet that well measuring DACs sound the same. Of course they don't if you DSP the sound up front either in the same box, or in the computer before sending to the DAC.

I have the miniDSP as well... it doesn't offer the "Loudness" feature. It's just straight EQ. I prefer the RME over my MiniDSP by a HUGE margin.

 

[ehabheikal]

Most well engineered DAC's sound very similar but the RME ADI-2 DAC FS takes music to a whole new level. The "Loudness" controls offer the ability to dial in custom Bass and Treble settings when playing music at lower volumes so you get the same dynamic punch and kick as when playing loud. You control where and if they kick in and at what volume. It's pretty great to be able to dial in the exact sound you want. After you become familiar with it, it's really hard to be satisfied with any other DAC.

You want more bass punch? no problem. Speaker sounds distant and you want a more up front sound? No problem. Whatever sound you desire the RME "Loudness" feature can get you there AND you can try it in real-time while listening to your favorite music. It's phenomenally good!


View attachment 399163

Would not the wiim Eq and peq be more precise?

 

[Soniclife]

Interestingly, when it came to a professional musician, the preference for this DAC increased to 90%.

If this was correctly level matched, and double blind it would be interesting, without both controls it's just a fun evening, nothing wrong with that, enjoy yourself, but get them both in place and the fun will probably go right out of it.

 

[Mr.A]

They were not properly level matched and there are plenty of other things that could/would have influenced you supposed findings, whoever the listeners may have been.

So your findings are of no meaning to me, and should not be to anyone else. Especially when weighed against all of the properly conducted tests that show that yours are totally wrong.

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence, and you are extraordinarily far from having provided such.

What tests are you talking about? You talk about scientific rigor but provide no information at all about them.

At no point was the intention to scientifically prove anything or to convince anyone of anything, and that was made clear from the start. If you overlooked that part, that's your responsibility. This was simply about sharing a personal experience, not making extraordinary claims or offering extraordinary evidence.