Wiim Ultra vs Wiim Ultra + External Dac (Blind Test Results)

[Mr.A]

I recently got into audiophilia and posted a thread (

https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/1fogb7d/wiim_ultra_external_dac

) asking whether adding an external DAC to my Funktion One Compact System (Wiim Ultra - Subwoofer SB10A - F81.2 Speakers) could improve it, especially the soundstage.

Most of the responses said that an external DAC would likely have little to no impact on the system.

However, given the debate it sparked, I decided to order a Topping D90 III Sabre DAC to test for myself and form an informed opinion.

The day it arrived, I set up a blind A/B test for my girlfriend using a Nobsound MC103 Pro splitter between two sources:

1: Wiim Ultra (RCA) → (XLR) Nobsound MC103 Pro → (XLR) SB10A Subwoofer → F81.2 Speakers.

2: Wiim Ultra (Optical) → Topping D90 III DAC (Optical) → (XLR) Nobsound MC103 Pro → (XLR) SB10A Subwoofer → F81.2 Speakers.

Before starting, I verified the system was calibrated using pink noise (I had to raise the left channel by +0.5 dB) and matched the output volume from both sources at 82 dB using a sound level meter.

The test consisted of playing 10 tracks from TIDAL (switching sources A/B during the song) and asking the listener to choose which one sounded better.

Here are the results:

Girlfriend: Chose the Topping DAC 7 out of 10 times as the better-sounding option.

Songs where she picked the Topping DAC: September (Earth, Wind & Fire), Sirius (Alan Parsons Project), Don’t Answer Me (Alan Parsons Project), Bubbles (Horikawa), Money (Pink Floyd), Money for Nothing (Dire Straits), Valerie (Amy Winehouse).

Songs where she didn’t: In the Air Tonight (Phil Collins), Dreams (Fleetwood Mac), Hotel California (Eagles).

Me: On the same day, I did the test and only picked the Topping DAC 5 out of 10 times.

Intrigued by the results (thinking my girlfriend’s picks might have been luck), I invited four friends (two men and two women) to a “DAC Party” a few days later for more testing.

Of the four friends, one is a sound engineer and professional musician (whose song is Grammy-nominated this year), and the other three are casual music listeners.

Professional Musician: Picked the Topping DAC 9 out of 10 times as the better-sounding option.

Songs where he picked the Topping DAC: Giorgio Moroder (Daft Punk), Bubbles (Horikawa), Rosanna (Earth, Wind & Fire), Money for Nothing (Dire Straits), Valerie (Amy Winehouse), Poem of Chinese Drum (Hok Man Yim), Hotel California (Eagles), Tea in the Sahara (The Police), Dreams (Fleetwood Mac).

The only song he picked incorrectly: Vivaldi: The Four Seasons.

Casual Listener 1: Chose the Topping DAC 8 out of 10 times.

Incorrect choices: Valerie (Amy Winehouse), Hotel California (Eagles).

Casual Listener 2: Chose the Topping DAC 7 out of 10 times.

Incorrect choices: Dreams (Fleetwood Mac), Poem of Chinese Drum (Hok Man Yim), Vivaldi: The Four Seasons.

Casual Listener 3: Chose the Topping DAC 7 out of 10 times.

Incorrect choices: Valerie (Amy Winehouse), Hotel California (Eagles), Money for Nothing (Dire Straits).

Overall Statistic: Out of 60 total comparisons across all listeners, the Topping D90 III DAC was chosen 43 times “correctly” as the better-sounding option, which translates to 72% of the time.

The reasons each listener gave for their choices were varied, but the general consensus was that the Topping D90 III Sabre DAC seemed slightly clearer and had more precise bass.

Despite the results, the overall opinion was that the differences between the two sources are very subtle and only noticeable in critical listening sessions—probably inaudible for most people in casual listening environments.

This test was done for fun, and the results are shared as an anecdote, not as scientific evidence of any conclusion.

After completing the test, I’m now faced with this dilemma: should I keep the Topping D90 III DAC, or return it and try a different DAC with a different technology (like the Denafrips Ares II) for another round of testing, purely for the fun of ‘chasing the perfect audio’?

Looking forward for questions and comments.

 

[himey]

Not one picture of the setup?

 

[Emlin]

As you say, not scientific and just another anecdote.

Why return and replace the DAC just for another anecdote?

 

[kyuu]

Before starting, I verified the system was calibrated using pink noise (I had to raise the left channel by +0.5 dB) and matched the output volume from both sources at 82 dB using a sound level meter.

That doesn't seem like it's sufficient to ensure proper level matching. SPL meters are not accurate enough.

 

[staticV3]

Levels must be matched electrically for meaningful results.

A basic multimeter is sufficient.

 

[BDWoody]

Looking forward for questions and comments

Sounds like it was a fun time, with some good music shared among friends.

If you want to tighten it up a little to make your results more meaningful, in addition to working on the level matching with a voltmeter, you may want to look at the blinding of the switching process itself (the double blind part) as we want to eliminate a Clever Hans situation.

You also may want to set it up for yourself/them to identify a difference rather than a preference with an AB/X test. It seems like it wasn't too painful for your friends, so maybe they'd be interested in a follow-up to move it to the next level, but good for you for taking a stab at it!

There are lots of people here who could help if you wanted to really 'do it right.'

 

[amper42]

Send the Topping DAC back and replace it with an RME ADI-2 DAC FS while using the "Loudness" software control to tweak the sound just the way you like it. You won't believe how much better it sounds.

 

[Overseas]

This is about perceiving differences between DACs, not about tweaking and sounding better.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

I believe that, despite the thoroughness of your test, you missed a valuable opportunity by not including photos of the setup, measuring equipment, the room, and listening positions.

It’s unfortunate because the results seem intriguing and differ from my own experiences with DACs. I would have appreciated seeing more compelling evidence to truly feel "disrupted" by the findings.

And yes, as others have noted, using an SPL meter for calibration isn't precise enough for this purpose. Even slight variations in microphone positioning can significantly affect the readings.

 

[Matt_Holland]

Sounds like you need to have another DAC party.

You should because with a more scientific method I’m interested in the results.

 

[holbob]

Just one grammy nominated musician this time? For true double blind testing to occur you need at least two

 

[Overseas]

Two cause stereo?

 

[himey]

Two cause stereo?

Quadraphonic, four ears.

 

[ehabheikal]

I recently got into audiophilia and posted a thread (

https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/1fogb7d/wiim_ultra_external_dac

) asking whether adding an external DAC to my Funktion One Compact System (Wiim Ultra - Subwoofer SB10A - F81.2 Speakers) could improve it, especially the soundstage.

Most of the responses said that an external DAC would likely have little to no impact on the system.

However, given the debate it sparked, I decided to order a Topping D90 III Sabre DAC to test for myself and form an informed opinion.

The day it arrived, I set up a blind A/B test for my girlfriend using a Nobsound MC103 Pro splitter between two sources:

1: Wiim Ultra (RCA) → (XLR) Nobsound MC103 Pro → (XLR) SB10A Subwoofer → F81.2 Speakers.

2: Wiim Ultra (Optical) → Topping D90 III DAC (Optical) → (XLR) Nobsound MC103 Pro → (XLR) SB10A Subwoofer → F81.2 Speakers.

Before starting, I verified the system was calibrated using pink noise (I had to raise the left channel by +0.5 dB) and matched the output volume from both sources at 82 dB using a sound level meter.

The test consisted of playing 10 tracks from TIDAL (switching sources A/B during the song) and asking the listener to choose which one sounded better.

Here are the results:

Girlfriend: Chose the Topping DAC 7 out of 10 times as the better-sounding option.

Songs where she picked the Topping DAC: September (Earth, Wind & Fire), Sirius (Alan Parsons Project), Don’t Answer Me (Alan Parsons Project), Bubbles (Horikawa), Money (Pink Floyd), Money for Nothing (Dire Straits), Valerie (Amy Winehouse).

Songs where she didn’t: In the Air Tonight (Phil Collins), Dreams (Fleetwood Mac), Hotel California (Eagles).

Me: On the same day, I did the test and only picked the Topping DAC 5 out of 10 times.

Intrigued by the results (thinking my girlfriend’s picks might have been luck), I invited four friends (two men and two women) to a “DAC Party” a few days later for more testing.

Of the four friends, one is a sound engineer and professional musician (whose song is Grammy-nominated this year), and the other three are casual music listeners.

Professional Musician: Picked the Topping DAC 9 out of 10 times as the better-sounding option.

Songs where he picked the Topping DAC: Giorgio Moroder (Daft Punk), Bubbles (Horikawa), Rosanna (Earth, Wind & Fire), Money for Nothing (Dire Straits), Valerie (Amy Winehouse), Poem of Chinese Drum (Hok Man Yim), Hotel California (Eagles), Tea in the Sahara (The Police), Dreams (Fleetwood Mac).

The only song he picked incorrectly: Vivaldi: The Four Seasons.

Casual Listener 1: Chose the Topping DAC 8 out of 10 times.

Incorrect choices: Valerie (Amy Winehouse), Hotel California (Eagles).

Casual Listener 2: Chose the Topping DAC 7 out of 10 times.

Incorrect choices: Dreams (Fleetwood Mac), Poem of Chinese Drum (Hok Man Yim), Vivaldi: The Four Seasons.

Casual Listener 3: Chose the Topping DAC 7 out of 10 times.

Incorrect choices: Valerie (Amy Winehouse), Hotel California (Eagles), Money for Nothing (Dire Straits).

Overall Statistic: Out of 60 total comparisons across all listeners, the Topping D90 III DAC was chosen 43 times “correctly” as the better-sounding option, which translates to 72% of the time.

The reasons each listener gave for their choices were varied, but the general consensus was that the Topping D90 III Sabre DAC seemed slightly clearer and had more precise bass.

Despite the results, the overall opinion was that the differences between the two sources are very subtle and only noticeable in critical listening sessions—probably inaudible for most people in casual listening environments.

This test was done for fun, and the results are shared as an anecdote, not as scientific evidence of any conclusion.

After completing the test, I’m now faced with this dilemma: should I keep the Topping D90 III DAC, or return it and try a different DAC with a different technology (like the Denafrips Ares II) for another round of testing, purely for the fun of ‘chasing the perfect audio’?

Looking forward for questions and comments.

Your choice of songs is great. Rock on.

 

[Tell]

Looking forward to the follow up test and also some photos of the setup with those Funktion One speakers

 

[VintageFlanker]

Looking forward for questions and comments

As others already said. This is, unfortunately, not a proper way to level match :

and matched the output volume from both sources at 82 dB using a sound level meter.

This being said, the whole blind test could be flawed.
Acoustic measurements do not work for level match. Way too many variables : the tool itself, the placement, the axis, the irregular noise from the environment. You need to use a True RMS multimeter, then have both DUTs running about the same voltage (max 0.1dBu difference. A sine wave @1kHz as basis is valid in my book).

Welcome, and thanks for the effort, tho !

 

[DVDdoug]

I appreciate you doing this. A lot of people talk a lot with no evidence.

The test consisted of playing 10 tracks from TIDAL (switching sources A/B during the song) and asking the listener to choose which one sounded better.

Do they know if they are listening to A or B? If so, it's easy to be consistent and to pick A (or B) every time.

The only song he picked incorrectly: Vivaldi: The Four Seasons.

What does "incorrect" mean? If I understand the test, you asking their opinion and maybe he/she prefers that recording with B even if A is preferred with the other recordings.


Just FYI - With an ABX test, the listener can switch freely between A, B, and X (not as practical with a group or panel) before deciding if X is A or B. The test is just to see if there is a statistical difference (with multiple trials and X assigned randomly). It doesn't ask which is best. (But there ARE right or wrong answers... You either get X right or wrong with each trial.)

 

[Mr.A]

Not one picture of the setup?

You're right! I'm new to the forum, and I didn't realize how important pictures were for these kinds of posts. I'll definitely keep that in mind for next time and share some shots of the setup

 

[Mr.A]

As you say, not scientific and just another anecdote.

Why return and replace the DAC just for another anecdote?

Testing out different gear and comparing their performance is one of the most enjoyable and engaging parts of the hobby. Even if the results are anecdotal, it’s all about the experience and the fun that comes with discovering subtle differences and nuances in sound.

 

[Mr.A]

Sounds like it was a fun time, with some good music shared among friends.

If you want to tighten it up a little to make your results more meaningful, in addition to working on the level matching with a voltmeter, you may want to look at the blinding of the switching process itself (the double blind part) as we want to eliminate a Clever Hans situation.

You also may want to set it up for yourself/them to identify a difference rather than a preference with an AB/X test. It seems like it wasn't too painful for your friends, so maybe they'd be interested in a follow-up to move it to the next level, but good for you for taking a stab at it!

There are lots of people here who could help if you wanted to really 'do it right.'

Thanks for the suggestions! We definitely had a great time with some good music, and I appreciate the tips on how to make the test more meaningful. The idea of tightening up the process with level matching and improving the blinding sounds like a solid next step. We’re thinking about trying an AB/X test in the future to focus on identifying differences rather than preferences. If my friends are up for it, I’d love to give it another shot and see what we discover.