WiiM Ultra Streamer Preamp Review

[asibbald]

Linkplay is a systems integrator, most of these features are developed for brands they work with, then they release a low-price system under their own brand (Wiim) undercutting their own customers.. Of course it's cheaper when your competitors pay for most of the development. Is this illegal? No, and the brands made a mistake trusting Linkplay. But it's definitely a gray zone.

Then there is their agressive sales, often promising prices, features and quality that they can not meet, knowing that when a project is 75% in you can not move to a different platform and the brands are now dependent on them.

And then they hack in some features (Airplay..) without permission from service providers and sell a product, suddenly it has to be removed.. This is definitely not OK.

(Full disclosure, I work for another SI..)

Perhaps you have insider information that I don't. But it seems to me that, if they developed expertise in developing for OEMs - and the OEMs contracted with them for a specific product, then the OEMs have no rights over anything LinkPlay do in future.

Of course, as you say, OEMs may now reconsider whether to work with Linksys in future, now that they have to compete with WiiM. But surely that's an issue for the OEM - not for us end users? I'll purchase what is best for me. I have no loyalty to one manufacturer or another.

As for the Airplay issue - I'm not sure your characterisation of this is fully supported by the facts - at least as I understand them. I suspect this was an issue around a specific issue of licensing that LinkPlay misunderstood.Perhaps around the MFI (I believe it stands for "made for iPod" - showing you how long it's been around) chip that has long been a requirement for certain levels of Apple licensing.

Of course, you are entirely within your rights to buy or not buy from any vendor - especially as you clearly feel strongly about it.

But I can't see that some of your statements are backed by the facts I am aware of. If you have other information that is not in the public domain, then fair enough. I just don't know what it is...

 

[EJ3]

But I can't see that some of your statements are backed by the facts I am aware of. If you have other information that is not in the public domain, then fair enough. I just don't know what it is...

A number of years ago, when I was dealing with running sound (and sometimes recording) for some regional bands and the local 60 piece community band (a volunteer subsidiary of the local Charleston, SC; USA), I was warned by one of the sound engineers (who also worked at a local for profit radio station, as well as a local Public Broadcasting Station) to beware of dealing with a company named Linkplay for the exact same reasons TSB stated.
Now, I never actually saw any Linkplay gear or ran into any of their people that I know of.
And, in fact, I thought that they had folded as a company (since I never heard or saw the name again), until I read what TSB stated.
Then that jogged my memory about this one time I was told basically the same thing years ago about a company named Linkplay.
While I was working in that industry, true or not, I have heard of this, too.

 

[Miguelón]

My unit sound quite bad at RCA outputs, I was convinced that were ground loops on the monitor side, but once connected by usb to an Ifi Zen DAC, it sound ok by RCA again (same voltage output, 2 Vrms)

Can be a software issue or should I contact the reseller to a replacement?

 

[asibbald]

My unit sound quite bad at RCA outputs, I was convinced that were ground loops on the monitor side, but once connected by usb to an Ifi Zen DAC, it sound ok by RCA again (same voltage output, 2 Vrms)

Can be a software issue or should I contact the reseller to a replacement?

Ground loops will cause a very specific 50Hz/100Hz (in Spain) humming, or buzzing. Was that what you were hearing when it sounded "quite bad"?

If so, then yes, it probably was a grounding issue. I'm assuming that "sound ok by RCA again" means the RCA outputs of the wifi Zen?

If not, then you might have a bad unit - mine is entirely transparent via RCA Out.

 

[Miguelón]

Ground loops will cause a very specific 50Hz/100Hz (in Spain) humming, or buzzing. Was that what you were hearing when it sounded "quite bad"?

If so, then yes, it probably was a grounding issue. I'm assuming that "sound ok by RCA again" means the RCA outputs of the wifi Zen?

If not, then you might have a bad unit - mine is entirely transparent via RCA Out.

Hmmm, no, more on the side “hiss” and a lot of distortion on highs: definitely not transparent at all.

Yes, the RCA outputs on the Ifi Zen sound correct. It has also XLR outputs but I tried RCA to replicate same voltage.

I will contact the dealer, thanks!

 

[Multicore]

A number of years ago

Was that in the last 10 years?

 

[TSB]

Perhaps you have insider information that I don't. But it seems to me that, if they developed expertise in developing for OEMs - and the OEMs contracted with them for a specific product, then the OEMs have no rights over anything LinkPlay do in future.

That is correct, there is no legal problem here. But it is a breach of the social contract between system integrator (SI) and brand. An SI is useful because it allows brands to split development costs for common components without working together with their competitors (= sharing too much information). Once an SI turns into a brand (Linkplay -> WiiM) you suddenly have one company that knows inside information about a lot of competitors (used to be their customers) undercutting them.

Of course, as you say, OEMs may now reconsider whether to work with Linksys in future, now that they have to compete with WiiM. But surely that's an issue for the OEM - not for us end users? I'll purchase what is best for me. I have no loyalty to one manufacturer or another.

That is fair enough, and I don't mean to judge people who buy their products. (It's not like every other product is created by angels sitting in heaven..they are not!) It's just my decision not to.

As for the Airplay issue - I'm not sure your characterisation of this is fully supported by the facts - at least as I understand them. I suspect this was an issue around a specific issue of licensing that LinkPlay misunderstood.Perhaps around the MFI (I believe it stands for "made for iPod" - showing you how long it's been around) chip that has long been a requirement for certain levels of Apple licensing.

Of course, you are entirely within your rights to buy or not buy from any vendor - especially as you clearly feel strongly about it.

But I can't see that some of your statements are backed by the facts I am aware of. If you have other information that is not in the public domain, then fair enough. I just don't know what it is...

What you describe is launching an airplay product without the obligatory authentication chip to cut costs and hoping that Apple would not notice they are using the old software authentication. Linkplay as an experienced SI surely knew what they were doing here, and their customers got an inportant feature removed because of this. This is typical of the "agressive cost cutting" style of these kinds of companies.

 

[uofmtiger]

The AirPlay issue only affects the Ultra from what I understand and they discovered this on its initial release and said that all vendors would allow a return. Yes, they made a mistake with their original launch, but they didn’t take AirPlay away from older products that I own. I have a Wiim Mini and Pro and both still support AirPlay.

As for licensing tech and then using it themselves… Apple did the same thing with AirPlay and the HomePod, so I don’t see this as an unusual situation.

The upside to Wiim is that they constantly update their firmware to allow their devices to have more features over time. I have a Yamaha WXC-50 and it has rarely ever been updated. They also offer great support.. I have had questions and I always got a quick response. Honestly, people can make their own choices, but I find them to be consumer friendly, which is the thing I care about.

 

[jboyer]

I've replaced the Pi/MOTU with this Ultra - and the Hypex Monoblocks with a pair of Fosi V3 Monos. There has been no reduction in sound quality that I can hear - but the improvement in usability is night and day!

I have the same setup. TV and TT feed the Ultra as well as an USB memory stick and a shared drive from my music server.

Using the Room Equalizer and adjusting for the input levels make this Ultra/Fosi combination user friendly.
It is very difficult to compare an old set up (NAD 3045 driven from a Surface tablet and from the TT preamp) sound wise. But useability wise, especially for my spouse, this Ultra got peace back in the house.

A missing piece in our audio experience is how we each hear. My wife's hearing is still nearly perfect, while mine is aided by recently adjusted hearing aids. When we test various sound frequencies, it's clear that we perceive them differently. So, I'd add this element to choosing the Ultra: it appears that she enjoys its ease of use and the sound quality, though there's no hard science behind it.

 

[Gyosa1]

The AirPlay issue only affects the Ultra from what I understand and they discovered this on its initial release and said that all vendors would allow a return. Yes, they made a mistake with their original launch, but they didn’t take AirPlay away from older products that I own. I have a Wiim Mini and Pro and both still support AirPlay.

As for licensing tech and then using it themselves… Apple did the same thing with AirPlay and the HomePod, so I don’t see this as an unusual situation.

The upside to Wiim is that they constantly update their firmware to allow their devices to have more features over time. I have a Yamaha WXC-50 and it has rarely ever been updated. They also offer great support.. I have had questions and I always got a quick response. Honestly, people can make their own choices, but I find them to be consumer friendly, which is the thing I care about.

I have a couple Yamaha wxc-50’s as well ….
They haven’t had a firmware update in years - literally.

They won’t do Tidal hi-rez FLAC (just 16/44.1) and there are no plans for it to ever do so.

Bk

 

[harkpabst]

What you describe is launching an airplay product without the obligatory authentication chip to cut costs and hoping that Apple would not notice they are using the old software authentication.

Since when exactly is the authentication chip obligatory?

You do mention yourself that Apple did certify purely software based solutions in the past. Obviously, that was the case with the hardware platforms used in the WiiM Mini, the WiiM Pro, the WiiM Pro Plus and the WiiM Amp (launched in late 2023!). Are you saying that any of these product launches were violating Apple's terms, but unfortunately they slipped Apple's attention and because of that Apple had no means of revocing AirPlay certification for any of these devices? But somehow they did for the Ultra and the Amp Pro?

Can you supply any non-confidential evidence of how this would be possible?

Why then did WiiM remove AirPlay sender capabilies from said products but not AirPlay receiver capabilities?

 

[FLS3]

There are so many scenarios that could have resulted in the Airplay revocation it's hard to even speculate. I remember hardware dongles that were "obligatory" to run software like 3ds max, but it didn't take long for crackers to sidestep it. Not that Wiim were trying to "hack" the system, but integrating Apple's chip is an added expense. I don't know if Wiim was trying to dodge the Apple tax excise man, but it doesn't seem like they were exactly *expecting* to have Airplay revoked. Maybe it was NBD until another company complained... So many possibilities.

 

[mlsstl]

I've said it before and will say it again, but when issues between two companies result in disappointed customers, and neither company is willing to explain what happened, those customers make up their own stories, which are usually worse than what really happened. Both companies end up looking bad, though which one looks worse varies with which customer you ask.

Just glad I'm not an Apple user.

 

[BillH]

Linkplay is a systems integrator, most of these features are developed for brands they work with, then they release a low-price system under their own brand (Wiim) undercutting their own customers.. Of course it's cheaper when your competitors pay for most of the development. Is this illegal? No, and the brands made a mistake trusting Linkplay. But it's definitely a gray zone.

Then there is their agressive sales, often promising prices, features and quality that they can not meet, knowing that when a project is 75% in you can not move to a different platform and the brands are now dependent on them.

And then they hack in some features (Airplay..) without permission from service providers and sell a product, suddenly it has to be removed.. This is definitely not OK.

(Full disclosure, I work for another SI..)

I’m not sure I agree with your statement that it is a gray zone when the OEM uses their source code to release a competing product.

Aggressive sales? I think the record reflects they are delivering software updates and not leaving customers hanging.
Tell me what I’m missing.
Convince me they are a pariah…
Thanks

 

[shuppatsu]

That is correct, there is no legal problem here. But it is a breach of the social contract between system integrator (SI) and brand. An SI is useful because it allows brands to split development costs for common components without working together with their competitors (= sharing too much information). Once an SI turns into a brand (Linkplay -> WiiM) you suddenly have one company that knows inside information about a lot of competitors (used to be their customers) undercutting them.

Could you give an example of the kind of inside information you're talking about? Are you talking about technology, or market positioning? I'm struggling a bit to understand what Wiim could leverage from its clients' knowledge base.

 

[FLS3]

Could you give an example of the kind of inside information you're talking about? Are you talking about technology, or market positioning? I'm struggling a bit to understand what Wiim could leverage from its clients' knowledge base.

TSB seems to imply that the software "workaround" for Airplay was underhanded.

I'm curious if TSB, with his knowledge, might have some idea as to how much "properly" supporting Airplay might have added to the cost of the device for the consumer.

 

[shuppatsu]

TSB seems to imply that the software "workaround" for Airplay was underhanded.

I'm curious if TSB, with his knowledge, might have some idea as to how much "properly" supporting Airplay might have added to the cost of the device for the consumer.

That was a different point he was making.

Pretty sure that I read somewhere Wiim stating that they were using an open source library for Airplay support. Whether that’s legal or not may depend on the technology used and the jurisdiction. My knowledge of American law is fairly out of date but as I understand it reverse engineering is legal but only insofar as you don’t bypass any DRM. If the library requires spoofing authentication I’m pretty sure that’s illegal under the DMCA.

 

[uofmtiger]

I've said it before and will say it again, but when issues between two companies result in disappointed customers, and neither company is willing to explain what happened, those customers make up their own stories, which are usually worse than what really happened. Both companies end up looking bad, though which one looks worse varies with which customer you ask.

Just glad I'm not an Apple user.

I never blamed this on Apple since their website makes it clear that you need the chip. This appears to be some misunderstanding on Wiim’s part ( though I could be wrong since everyone, including me, is just speculating)… Apple probably missed the implementation on their other products.

Glad they didn’t require them to remove AirPlay from their older Wiim products. Linking with another Wiim device is the easiest way to get AirPlay on the Ultra without needing other devices involved.

That being said, a “mistake” in this area isn’t a deal killer for me.

 

[TSB]

I’m not sure I agree with your statement that it is a gray zone when the OEM uses their source code to release a competing product.

Aggressive sales? I think the record reflects they are delivering software updates and not leaving customers hanging.
Tell me what I’m missing.
Convince me they are a pariah…
Thanks

Agressive sales is a comment on the parent company Linkplay WRT to brands they make products for. I have no experience with customer-facing Wiim. Most people here seem quite happy with them. Not a pariah.

Could you give an example of the kind of inside information you're talking about? Are you talking about technology, or market positioning? I'm struggling a bit to understand what Wiim could leverage from its clients' knowledge base.

Both. As SI with a significant market position you can see (expected) sales, product designs, prices, etc from brands years before they are launched. This stuff is secret for a reason.

 

[TSB]

That was a different point he was making.

Pretty sure that I read somewhere Wiim stating that they were using an open source library for Airplay support. Whether that’s legal or not may depend on the technology used and the jurisdiction. My knowledge of American law is fairly out of date but as I understand it reverse engineering is legal but only insofar as you don’t bypass any DRM. If the library requires spoofing authentication I’m pretty sure that’s illegal under the DMCA.

This would be even worse than what I thought.

Since when exactly is the authentication chip obligatory?

You do mention yourself that Apple did certify purely software based solutions in the past. Obviously, that was the case with the hardware platforms used in the WiiM Mini, the WiiM Pro, the WiiM Pro Plus and the WiiM Amp (launched in late 2023!). Are you saying that any of these product launches were violating Apple's terms, but unfortunately they slipped Apple's attention and because of that Apple had no means of revocing AirPlay certification for any of these devices? But somehow they did for the Ultra and the Amp Pro?

Can you supply any non-confidential evidence of how this would be possible?

Why then did WiiM remove AirPlay sender capabilies from said products but not AirPlay receiver capabilities?

I should correct my previous post, what I wrote is wrong. Software is the newer auth method. So maybe Wiim thought they could support the new software auth with this open source library and save the cost of the auth IC? But I have no more information than others here so this is speculation.

Most plausible scenario to me is that Wiim announced the Airplay feature and then failed Airplay certification because of a problem with their software auth. From their statements it seems they are not able to support software authentication, this could for example be a limitation of their platform not being secure enough or just a lack of engineering resources. In that case it would require a hardware redesign to certify the product for airplay and they decided against it. (it would require a new certification for all services, very expensive) Presumably the older products do have the authentication IC.

I don't understand your last question. The WiiM Ultra does not support AirPlay and cannot function as an AirPlay receiver.

TSB seems to imply that the software "workaround" for Airplay was underhanded.

I'm curious if TSB, with his knowledge, might have some idea as to how much "properly" supporting Airplay might have added to the cost of the device for the consumer.

I can not tell you what apple charges for the auth IC, and extra cost per device depends on a lot of factors, integration cost, volume of sales, etc.

I've said it before and will say it again, but when issues between two companies result in disappointed customers, and neither company is willing to explain what happened, those customers make up their own stories, which are usually worse than what really happened. Both companies end up looking bad, though which one looks worse varies with which customer you ask.

Just glad I'm not an Apple user.

These authentication requirements are quite clear from Apple and have been for years. It would be very abnormal for apple to make public statements about why a certain product failed certification.