WiiM Ultra... Am I missing something?

[staticV3]

Could just be my own personal pet peeve, but I think the USB mass storage vs USB DAC distinction is bad for the overall market. I get that every penny of production cost matters, but it seems to me that things would be much simpler for consumers if you could buy pretty much any USB-enabled audio device and plug whatever you wanted into it - USB drive or USB cable from a "smart" host like a PC - and the device would auto-detect and go from there.

That's what USB-C was designed for.

USB-A was never meant to be a multi-purpose Host/Slave port. Brands like O-NOORUS and iFi are just abusing it as such, further fueling customer confusion.

 

[elshaddai]

Suspect they envisage other standalone digital sources (Im thinking CD/TV) might want to be fed via the Wiim DAC into your amp but they would be SPDIF connections. Take your point but I doubt many would get this to then use as a USB DAC with a PC therefore they took the lower cost for vast majority of overall user base decision.

I'm thinking with the advent of cheap amps like the Fosi mono blocks or ZA amps, a digital preamp might be desirable. Even Fosi has been hinting at making one, yes? WiiM could have been out early. But maybe USB will be provided along with XLR output in the Ultra Max next year...

 

[gwing]

Could just be my own personal pet peeve, but I think the USB mass storage vs USB DAC distinction is bad for the overall market. I get that every penny of production cost matters, but it seems to me that things would be much simpler for consumers if you could buy pretty much any USB-enabled audio device and plug whatever you wanted into it - USB drive or USB cable from a "smart" host like a PC - and the device would auto-detect and go from there.

I think customer confusion over this will only increase now that the two types of connections are no longer reliably identified by whether the USB port is a type A (mass storage) or type B (smart host), since devices are moving to USB C connectors for both types of ports. I support the move to type C - it's the inconsistency in what the USB port can and can't do from device to device that bugs me.

Finally, I think it's just bad product design to have digital inputs for a smart host, like optical and/or coax, but then to make the USB input only for mass storage. It just seems inconsistent.

I think this the USB specification though. There are USB hosts such as the Wiim reading mass storage or the PC sending data and USB clients which would be the Wiim receiving data from the PC. They are different so to do both jobs the Wiim would need two USB ports, one for host and one for client - just as you would need RCA in and RCA out connections if doing it in analog. Then there is USB OTG which I think sort of can do both in one connection but is a different protocol (I know little about OTG though so I'm willing to be corrected).

 

[tmtomh]

That's what USB-C was designed for.

USB-A was never meant to be a multi-purpose Host/Slave port. Brands like O-NOORUS and iFi are just abusing it as such, further fueling customer confusion.

Fair enough - but do you see manufacturers implementing host/save functionality when making the switch to USB-C ports? I'm sure some are - I'm just saying that they all should, to avoid confusion.

 

[staticV3]

Fair enough - but do you see manufacturers implementing host/save functionality when making the switch to USB-C ports? I'm sure some are - I'm just saying that they all should, to avoid confusion.

So do you want all DACs with USB-C input to also support plugging in mass-storage for local playback?

That'll require an additional SoC, OS, and display+arrow buttons to control it all. Probably $70+ all-in.

And anyone who wants to make a bare bones DAC without this functionality, should not use that port?

That sounds a bit silly.

IMO designers should absolutely be allowed to make host-only USB-C devices (e.g. PCs and laptops), slave-only USB-C devices (e.g. drives, interfaces, hubs), and host/slave USB-C devices (e.g. phones).

All I'm saying is that if you want to make a host/slave device, use the port which was designed for that (USB-C).

 

[Mnyb]

So do you want all DACs with USB-C input to also support plugging in mass-storage for local playback?

That'll require an additional SoC, OS, and display+arrow buttons to control it all. Probably $70+ all-in.

And anyone who wants to make a bare bones DAC without this functionality, should not use that port?

That sounds a bit silly.

IMO designers should absolutely be allowed to make host-only USB-C devices (e.g. PCs and laptops), slave-only USB-C devices (e.g. drives, interfaces, hubs), and host/slave USB-C devices (e.g. phones).

The OS needs to be capable too a whole mini linux computer , if you attach 8TB of files or something . you want tags indexed in some database etc ? and now we have a streamer included while at it as soon as thing like this is designed someone would attach 200000 files to it and expect it to be able to play any of them 2 seconds after insertion of the media with cover art and tags

 

[redjr]

I mentioned this fact a couple months ago, and was surprised as well, that this input was not included. Yes, you can use Toslink, but USB-IN from a computer - via I2S - allows for much greater bandwidth and sampling rates - if that is something of interest to you. BTW, toslink is limited to 44.1/192Mhz whereas a good USB receiver (XMOS) offers a lot more hi-res sampling options. The form-factor alone screams it would be ideal for near-field listening, like along side of a computer. If you're using any kind of computer/web-based playback client (MPDs), then a computer is a must. I guess stranger things have happened, but this one alludes me.

 

[epicure]

Am I missing something?

Yes, I am missing balanced outputs.

 

[redjr]

I mentioned this fact a couple months ago, and was surprised as well, that this input was not included. Yes, you can use Toslink, but USB-IN from a computer - via I2S - allows for much greater bandwidth and sampling rates - if that is something of interest to you. BTW, toslink is limited to 44.1/192Mhz whereas a good USB receiver (XMOS) offers a lot more hi-res sampling options. The form-factor alone screams it would be ideal for near-field listening, like along side of a computer. If you're using any kind of computer/web-based playback client (MPDs), then a computer is a must. I guess stranger things have happened, but this one alludes me.

I meant 24/96kHz.

 

[Madeintooting]

If you must have a cable rather than wifi, use a crossover network cable.
Archimago reports no measurable difference in how the 0s and 1s arrive at the DAC.

 

[CrustyToad]

Could just be my own personal pet peeve, but I think the USB mass storage vs USB DAC distinction is bad for the overall market. I get that every penny of production cost matters, but it seems to me that things would be much simpler for consumers if you could buy pretty much any USB-enabled audio device and plug whatever you wanted into it - USB drive or USB cable from a "smart" host like a PC - and the device would auto-detect and go from there.

I think customer confusion over this will only increase now that the two types of connections are no longer reliably identified by whether the USB port is a type A (mass storage) or type B (smart host), since devices are moving to USB C connectors for both types of ports. I support the move to type C - it's the inconsistency in what the USB port can and can't do from device to device that bugs me.

Finally, I think it's just bad product design to have digital inputs for a smart host, like optical and/or coax, but then to make the USB input only for mass storage. It just seems inconsistent.

I do agree. USB audio input would have been great. Nonetheless, this seems like a great package overall, definitely in the right direction of where things should be heading....
Very tempted to get one but will wait for first tests/impressions. Previous Wiim devices make me think it will perform transparently

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Am I missing something?

Yes, I am missing balanced outputs.

Does this not answer the original question?

In 40 years of hi-fi I’ve never experienced a single ground loop (and thus needed balanced outputs) until I introduced a PC into the chain.

We’ve had decades of people plugging in CD players, tape decks and tuners into amps using RCAs and it not being an issue.

Introducing a USB in (from PC) would almost demand balanced outputs, thus increasing the process both ends, unnecessarily.

As has been said, USB to optical is available for peanuts, if you so choose.

 

[ViperDom]

cost $700-800 in a miniDSP box, so the Ultra could have been an effective alternative.

800?

Grab a 2x4HD for $225 add DIRAC for another $225 if you want that.

This is what i use to control my my listening room which includes:
PC(Microsoft Surface) as source, bookshelf speakers, and two subs each individually optimized to integrate with each other and the mains through timing, x-over, and EQ. I don't think wimi has the ability to properly integrate sub to mains like the minidsp can as it lacks timing ability and the mini's virtually infinite crossover & PEQ options.

 

[elshaddai]

800?

Grab a 2x4HD for $225 add DIRAC for another $225 if you want that.

This is what i use to control my my listening room which includes:
PC(Microsoft Surface) as source, bookshelf speakers, and two subs each individually optimized to integrate with each other and the mains through timing, x-over, and EQ. I don't think wimi has the ability to properly integrate sub to mains like the minidsp can as it lacks timing ability and the mini's virtually infinite crossover & PEQ options.

I was looking at the miniDSP Flex as a more direct comparison to WiiM Ultra, which is $500 for the RCA version. Plus the DIRAC option for room correction, led me to the $700-800 quote, also including a mic.

Ultimately the decision will come down to Flex for comprehensive DSP/bass integration control or WiiM Ultra for basic bass management, post-measurement equalization and streaming options, especially for those without the iOS app.

 

[pewe]

Can the Wiim Ultra work as safe preamp if connected to a poweramp? I'm thinking that digital preamps sometimes have been known for faulty volume control damaging the speakers when the volume suddenly goes to max. Or does the Ultra have to be connected to an analouge preamp?

 

[morillon]

Can the Wiim Ultra work as safe preamp if connected to a poweramp? I'm thinking that digital preamps sometimes have been known for faulty volume control damaging the speakers when the volume suddenly goes to max. Or does the Ultra have to be connected to an analouge preamp?

the machine is not yet available, nor tested etc etc
(there seems to have been no official release date, a very big vagueness, some distributors announce release dates that are probably fictitious, other big distributors, who usually announce dates, just offer pre-orders, etc.
seems that there is not yet a pre-series circulating among testers - reviewers etc....
wait and see .. ;-) )

it really speaks into the void, see the fantasy, for the moment...

patience...
;-)

 

[Norcal]

Can the Wiim Ultra work as safe preamp if connected to a poweramp? I'm thinking that digital preamps sometimes have been known for faulty volume control damaging the speakers when the volume suddenly goes to max. Or does the Ultra have to be connected to an analouge preamp?

The answer to the 'does it have to be connected to an analog preamp?' is no, it doesn't have to. The answer to the question as to whether it is 'safe' from a glitch causing it to go to full output is there isn't enough data to predict the potential occurrence rate of such an event. There are a lot of people using dacs with volume control as preamps, and while there are some reports of volume excursions across brands, they seem relatively rare given the overall usage rates.

 

[Lesureman]

In addition to the USB and coax inputs missing I am uncertain as to its ability to stream from my PC, or have a menu system to play my music collection from a USB drive. At least one more analog RCA input would be a huge plus. Additionally, the room correction only works IOS and I am staunchly anti-Apple (I used to work for Apple) and apparently 50% of the US and 70% of the world agree with me. Also, a dedicated remote is really nice to have, I get tired of using my phone and opening an app constantly. Having said all that, I have pre-ordered one because I would like to take it for a test drive and try to work it into one of my four systems.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

In addition to the USB and coax inputs missing I am uncertain as to its ability to stream from my PC, or have a menu system to play my music collection from a USB drive. At least one more analog RCA input would be a huge plus. Additionally, the room correction only works IOS and I am staunchly anti-Apple (I used to work for Apple) and apparently 50% of the US and 70% of the world agree with me. Also, a dedicated remote is really nice to have, I get tired of using my phone and opening an app constantly. Having said all that, I have pre-ordered one because I would like to take it for a test drive and try to work it into one of my four systems.

On your first point, if you have a USB drive, yes the WiiM Ultra will play it, and works as a media player when doing so, that’s genuinely not an issue.

Regarding inputs, it has:

- Wi-Fi input (for streaming)
- Bluetooth input
- Vinyl in
- RCA in
- Optical in
- HDMI in
- USB in

That’s 7 inputs, which I believe is very competitive indeed with other streamers costing twice as much. And more.

Regarding room correction, it’s grossly unfair to paint this as simply WiiM siding with Apple.

As has been said already, on so many occasions that I’ve lost count, the microphones in iPhones and iPads are few in number and very consistent, so easy to compensate for.

The microphones in other devices run into the hundreds, and it’s simply not possible to compensate for them all.

 

[jhaider]

It's also a digital preamp, yes? I just found it surprising that they included some digital inputs but not USB.

The genius of this feature is WiiM can broadcast over AirPlay as well. So you can hook up the turntable in your living room and play it on your kitchen speakers.

Also, they’re great for desktop use because you can play from your iPhone, Mac, etc over AirPlay. If anyone thinks there’s a fidelity dropoff from that…get over yourselves. I have a Pro hooked feeding an RME ADI-2 Pro on my desk for that reason.