Wiim Roomfit - very small room questions.

[jjk1]

Hello all -

I’ve got a Wiim pro plus that I’m using for my speaker amplifier and 2 headphone amps.
I’ve been using the Wiim to EQ headphones but I’ve not had much luck with Roomfit.
I’ve got small sealed bookshelf speakers that have a FR of 75hz on the low end as a spec. Harbeth p3ers- older model. The room is a cube. 700 cubic feet, 10x10x7.
I’ve seen measurements that have these speakers down about 5db at 60hz.
I’m in a perfect fantom center from the only listening spot. Almost nearfield.
Where would you suggest I limit the correction for Roomfit? Should I EQ the upper ranges or just from 60hz up to 500 or 1khz ?
I don’t have a subwoofer- I don’t think it would work in this room.
And can you recommend an inexpensive microphone to use with an iPhone that would work for Roomfit?

Thanks for any advice.

JJK

 

[Keith_W]

The Schroeder frequency is going to be very high in your room. Assuming a T60 of 500ms, I just calculated it to be about 320Hz. That means that you should be able to correct up to 320Hz, maybe up to about 600Hz but that would be pushing it.

As for frequencies above 600Hz, I would suggest leaving it alone unless you think you hear a problem. Maybe it's too bright, or too dark. These problems can be fixed, but it will require very careful measurements, and the solution may be room treatment instead of DSP. If you don't hear a problem, leave it alone.

I do not recommend ANY inexpensive microphones that would work with an iPhone. There is the Dayton IMM-6 but all microphones of that type are rubbish. It can be made to work if all you want to look at are bass frequencies, but you will run into its limitations very quickly and then it would be a waste of money and you have to buy something else. So in the long run, you are better off buying a proper microphone in the first place. At the very minimum: UMIK-1. Preferably UMIK-2 or better.

 

[Mort]

Hello all -

I’ve got a Wiim pro plus that I’m using for my speaker amplifier and 2 headphone amps.
I’ve been using the Wiim to EQ headphones but I’ve not had much luck with Roomfit.
I’ve got small sealed bookshelf speakers that have a FR of 75hz on the low end as a spec. Harbeth p3ers- older model. The room is a cube. 700 cubic feet, 10x10x7.
I’ve seen measurements that have these speakers down about 5db at 60hz.
I’m in a perfect fantom center from the only listening spot. Almost nearfield.
Where would you suggest I limit the correction for Roomfit? Should I EQ the upper ranges or just from 60hz up to 500 or 1khz ?
I don’t have a subwoofer- I don’t think it would work in this room.
And can you recommend an inexpensive microphone to use with an iPhone that would work for Roomfit?

Thanks for any advice.

JJK

I'm in a nearly identical space and use a very controlled sub and DSP to get it under control or suggest up to 300hz and that is usually enough. Occasionally I'll add a manual tweak above that if something is a little hot up to 500k maybe. Very consistent with @Keith_W estimate.

 

[pppebakerb]

I would probably try to limit RoomFit to around 60-500Hz and leave the rest alone. Since most of the problems in a small square room are more related to bass and low mids, and correcting too much high frequencies can ruin the natural sound of the speaker. It is probably not worth raising the frequency below 60Hz any further.

For a cheap iPhone microphone, the Dayton iMM-6 works great for basic measurements.

 

[ZolaIII]

Not only subwoofer will work but you can even put it to neutralise room fundamental in near near field (100 and cuple cm). How convenient is to have one put like that right in front of you is another story.
Every deacent microphone will do for much more then shoulder frequency, UMIK-1 recommendation is for REW usage with calibration. Then you can do timing measurements and use it SPL meter. You mesure then see and seak advise how too.

 

[thcdru2k]

I would go 500hz even up to 800hz just to clean up more mid issues. I have UMIK-2 plugged in directly to s24 ultra and am able to load calibration file; I imagine UMIK-1 would be just as easy as long as you had the right cable or a USB OTG. I always eq with non-boost most, i like psychoacoustic smoothing (this avoids correcting narrow nulls) , harman curve, moderate Q (2 or 2.5), i cap min gain at -6db to avoid chasing nulls. I dont do moving mic or multiple measurements. Just put the mic approximately where your ears are but not above your ears. In a cube room I would avoid perfect symmetry of placement as that can reinforce or pile up room modes.

 

[jjk1]

Thanks all,
I’ll start by using what i have and go from there. I’ll try to EQ from 55 or 60hz to 500hz with the iPhone mic.
I may try a small sub at some point, and I’ll probably get a better microphone in the next few weeks.
To be honest since acquiring the Verum2 headphones I’ve been rather obsessed with them. They are like a tinnitus free all day on my head room. I thinks it’s because the pads keep the drivers away from my eardrums more than any other headphones.
They are reason I hate my room right now.



Anyway- without a subwoofer in my room should I target a flat response instead of a bass boosted preference target ?
As far as a subwoofer- should I look for a small sealed sub? Are there small passive subwoofers I could run on zone 2 speaker terminals?


Thanks again.

 

[DanielT]

The mobile phone's microphone is not much to have. As Keith_W mentioned in #2, consider a UMIK.

I use UMIK-1 together with my WiiM Mini when I do RoomFit sweep and it work well with my Samsung tablet ,Galaxy Tab A9+. However, not with my Samsung A16 mobile. By works, I mean downloading the UMIK-1 calibration files and then importing them into the WiiM. With my A9+ it was child's play. Just plug and play
So at least for Android products it seems to be different, if it is possible to get it to work smoothly with UMIK and Wiim that is. There may be programs, apps, etc. to install to make it work with my A16 mobile but I haven't investigated that.

I don't know how it is with Apple products, but check it out first if you are considering a real measurement microphone (and not the mobile phone's microphone)

Here is my WiiM Mini RoomFit sweep with UMIK-1. Wharfedale Diamond 220 speakers, bass tone control on O on my receiver (I'm experimenting with different settings together with my subwoofer).


With UMIK + Wiim , consider getting a suitably long cable. Possibly also a microphone stand.

 

[jjk1]

Here’s what the Wiim wants to do up to 500hz with 2 flat target attempt (1500hz for the b&k target experiment) with the iPhone microphone. It sounds bad (or less good) then no EQ. I think the tweeters might be a few inches too high relative to my ears and I can’t do much with placement. 7ft ceiling are pretty low. I may flip the speakers upside down and try again. I can do better with analog tone control. I may try to bring down the mids with the tone control and run it again to see if it remains so aggressive. I have a pm8006 with a mid range knob. This is fun. I’m gonna buy a microphone for sure.


JJK

 

[DanielT]

Have fun!

Note, turn down the volume on your WiiM if you boost via PEQ/RoomFit. This is to avoid clipping. You can read more about it here:

Guide for Managing Volume and Headroom on the WiiM Mini (Measurements)

This is a small excursion into volume and EQ headroom on the WiiM Mini (and by extension, likely other WiiM products). WiiM Mini Firmware: 4.6.805929 WiiM Home Version: 3.5.1 For all tests, I used a -1dBFS Measurement Sweep, exported from REW and played back directly via the WiiM Home App...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Keith_W]

I do not recommend aggressive correction (i.e. correcting too high or higher resolution correction) when the listening triangle is small. This is because of parallax error caused by listener movement. To make matters worse, people who have small listening rooms typically have computer/desk PC setups and move a lot in their listening chairs, so there is no fixed position to EQ. Imagine an isosceles triangle where two sides are 3m. If you move by 30cm from side to side, the parallax error is already measurable but it's not too bad. The problem is greatly magnified if the distance is 1m.

 

[kharan]

The Schroeder frequency is going to be very high in your room. Assuming a T60 of 500ms, I just calculated it to be about 320Hz. That means that you should be able to correct up to 320Hz, maybe up to about 600Hz but that would be pushing it.

As for frequencies above 600Hz, I would suggest leaving it alone unless you think you hear a problem. Maybe it's too bright, or too dark. These problems can be fixed, but it will require very careful measurements, and the solution may be room treatment instead of DSP. If you don't hear a problem, leave it alone.

I do not recommend ANY inexpensive microphones that would work with an iPhone. There is the Dayton IMM-6 but all microphones of that type are rubbish. It can be made to work if all you want to look at are bass frequencies, but you will run into its limitations very quickly and then it would be a waste of money and you have to buy something else. So in the long run, you are better off buying a proper microphone in the first place. At the very minimum: UMIK-1. Preferably UMIK-2 or better.

What's the difference the Umik 1 and 2? Specs say a lower noise floor, but does that actually matter for room correction?
Otherwise are there alternatives in the middle of those two?

 

[Keith_W]

What's the difference the Umik 1 and 2? Specs say a lower noise floor, but does that actually matter for room correction?
Otherwise are there alternatives in the middle of those two?

If you don't mind, I'll open that question to people who know more than me about the UMIK1/2. I have never owned either microphone, everything I know is off the spec sheets.

My main experience is with XLR microphones. I can tell you the difference between a Behringer ECM8000 and an Earthworks M30 (both of which I own). The Behringer has much lower sensitivity than the M30, which means the preamp gain needs to be turned up higher. Which in turn means the SNR is worse. Since I barely use my ECM8000 I can't tell you if the noise floor affects the measurement, I would need to do a specific experiment to determine that - which I haven't done.

AFAIK the main difference is that the UMIK-2 has its own internal clock, and does not rely on the USB bus clock on the UMIK-1. This means it doesn't suffer as much latency jitter as the UMIK-1. Please look at this thread, which includes a reply from John Mulcahy correcting my wrong assumptions.

 

[thcdru2k]

For WiiM Roomfit which is mainly frequency correction and not reliant on timing precision UMIK-1 and UMIK-2 will be identical.

 

[Keith_W]

For WiiM Roomfit which is mainly frequency correction and not reliant on timing precision UMIK-1 and UMIK-2 will be identical.

Agree. Not to mention: small listening triangle. Time alignment is meaningless. XLR mic is best for the long term, followed by UMIK-2, and then UMIK-1. Something like an IMM-6 should be avoided.

 

[staticV3]

For WiiM Roomfit which is mainly frequency correction and not reliant on timing precision UMIK-1 and UMIK-2 will be identical.

in fact, UMIK-1 will give more consistent readings there as its smaller diameter diaphragm is less directional