WiiM Pro Plus Streamer Review

[Soniclife]

Yes, sorry, 2 conversions in total, that's what I meant...

Suppose is non audible, I red somewhere that 8 loops AD-DA in an audio interface where needed to bring perceptible changes on a track.

Try this.

8th generation ADC/DAC loop vs the original.....can you hear it?

Download this zip file. It will unzip into a folder with three 30 second snippets of a Fiona Apple song. Two are the original digital file. One is an 8th generation loop thru DAC/ADC. Pick the odd file out on the poll...

www.audiosciencereview.com

It's not something I worry about.

 

[Miguelón]

Try this.

8th generation ADC/DAC loop vs the original.....can you hear it?

Download this zip file. It will unzip into a folder with three 30 second snippets of a Fiona Apple song. Two are the original digital file. One is an 8th generation loop thru DAC/ADC. Pick the odd file out on the poll...

www.audiosciencereview.com

It's not something I worry about.

Nice argument, I will try it later

I think is based on the same post or article I red, being same number of iterations.

 

[antcollinet]

True as I learned here….

I am teaching science and appreciate the way science is important on this forum. Thank’s to the numerous examples on this site I learned a lot. Blind ABX testing is not an option at my home. So what is left ? Listening with my family… They don’t care about costs and looks but give their opinion (but notice I put ‘unbiased’ into parentheses).

You’re statement earlier is that the improvements might be inaudible and without proper blind testing is impossible to find out. Also true…

Should I buy an X5 and use the Wiim for room correction ? Should I leave my system as is ? Should I try the Wiim option first with the built-in pre amp of the turntable ? What would you’re recommendation be ? (And why do you think so ?)

I would start with what you have - the turntables built in preamp. If the manufacturer knows their stuff, it should be pretty much optimised to match the performance of the turntable. Plus it has the advantage of no (or at least very short internal) cabling between the cartridge and the preamp for the very low level signals.

When you are familiar with the sound you get from that - and if you still feel the need, you can try an external preamp and see if you can hear a difference - and if you can - is it better, or just different.

 

[antcollinet]

Yes, sorry, 2 conversions in total, that's what I meant...

Suppose is non audible, I red somewhere that 8 loops AD-DA in an audio interface where needed to bring perceptible changes on a track.

There is no doubt that a single AD DA pair, is (if even halfway competent) totally transparent to the best signal you can get from vinyl.

 

[Argentum 05]

Hello everyone.
I have a question about adjusting the volume level on the WIIM Pro Plus.
There's a volume control in % from 0 to 100%.
You can also set the output voltage from 0.2-0.5-0.8-1-2v.
By adjusting both, you can change the volume level, using the Wiim Pro Plus as a preamplifier.

As far as I know, the % volume control scale adjusts the volume digitally, using the bit depth from 32-bit to 24-bit, without losing sound quality.
What happens when changing the output voltage? Does the signal-to-noise ratio deteriorate?

And which option is best: lowering the voltage or the % volume?

Currently, I have it set to 1v and use a volume of 40-60%.

 

[staticV3]

What happens when changing the output voltage?

Also digital, same as the volume control in %.

With one difference in that the volume control is applied before EQ, meaning it increases EQ headroom, and the Aux Out Level is applied after EQ, meaning it does not increase EQ headroom.

Here are a few tests showing this:

Guide for Managing Volume and Headroom on the WiiM Mini (Measurements)

This is a small excursion into volume and EQ headroom on the WiiM Mini (and by extension, likely other WiiM products). WiiM Mini Firmware: 4.6.805929 WiiM Home Version: 3.5.1 For all tests, I used a -1dBFS Measurement Sweep, exported from REW and played back directly via the WiiM Home App...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Argentum 05]

Also digital, same as the volume control in %.

Here are a few tests showing this:

Thank you! Very interesting and useful research.

So, I was right when I set the limit to 90% and capped the maximum allowed gain at 3dB in the RoomFit settings.

I hope that what applies to the Wiim Mini is equally applicable to the Wiim Pro Plus.

However, the following questions remain:
1) How much does a significant reduction in volume percentage affect sound quality? Specifically, when the 8-bit volume control is exhausted?
Will there be a deterioration in quality if I set it to, say, 10% or 5%?

2) Does selecting an output voltage between 0.2V and 2V affect sound quality?

So, in theory, it follows that it's advisable to set the volume limit to 80-85% and set the output voltage to the maximum allowable level?
And then adjust the volume to the desired level?
(I'm using the RCA output.)

 

[antcollinet]

1) How much does a significant reduction in volume percentage affect sound quality? Specifically, when the 8-bit volume control is exhausted?
Will there be a deterioration in quality if I set it to, say, 10% or 5%?

2) Does selecting an output voltage between 0.2V and 2V affect sound quality?

Neither of these will impact sound quality.

The only thing digital volume control does to measurable sound quality is reduce the SNR. That is the signal is reduced while the noise level stays the same.


But here is the thing - with the volume at 100% (or whatever your maximum listening level is) you cannot hear the noise (even in the silences between tracks). So when the volume is turned down - you still can't hear it (noise level remains the same)

So no impact on audio quality.

 

[Argentum 05]

Neither of these will impact sound quality.

Just for theoretical purposes, what volume reduction can an 8-bit buffer allow? And what happens after it's exhausted?
Is this information available anywhere?
Perhaps for very low volume levels, an additional analog attenuator is needed.

 

[SoySalsaPicante]

Just for theoretical purposes, what volume reduction can an 8-bit buffer allow? And what happens after it's exhausted?
Is this information available anywhere?
Perhaps for very low volume levels, an additional analog attenuator is needed.

I don’t know for absolute fact, and it depends on the system variabilities (noise floor level, gain-staging, etc.) but a rule of thumb I’ve seen is -30dB or greater digital attenuation begins to risk potentially impacting sound audibly. Of course there are always other potential masking effects such as speaker distortion, room interaction, etc.

 

[Argentum 05]

But here is the thing - with the volume at 100% (or whatever your maximum listening level is) you cannot hear the noise (even in the silences between tracks). So when the volume is turned down - you still can't hear it (noise level remains the same)

Regarding the noise level, I completely agree with you.
I'm curious if there's any further sound degradation when the volume is significantly reduced and the bit depth is lowered.

 

[Argentum 05]

I don’t know for absolute fact, and it depends on the system variabilities (noise floor level, gain-staging, etc.) but a rule of thumb I’ve seen is -30dB or greater digital attenuation begins to risk potentially impacting sound audibly. Of course there are always other potential masking effects such as speaker distortion, room interaction, etc.

Yes, distortion from speaker systems will likely outweigh all other distortions.
But it would still be interesting to know about the possible distortion of a digital source when the volume is significantly reduced.

 

[antcollinet]

Regarding the noise level, I completely agree with you.
I'm curious if there's any further sound degradation when the volume is significantly reduced and the bit depth is lowered.

Like I said - all it does is alter the signal to noise ratio - no other quality difference.


The only impact bit depth has is on the relative amount of quantisation noise - Since you are not really reducing the bit depth (the dac is still a 24bit (or 32bit) dac, you have just reduced the signal level within those bits, the quantisation noise at the output of the DAC remains unchanged. Just with signal reduced.


I realise this can sound counter intuitive. To get a better idea of how bit depth only impacts quantisation noise - watch the Monty "Digital Show and Tell" video (just search for "Monty" in the search bar - it is posted frequently)

 

[testp]

Also digital, same as the volume control in %.

With one difference in that the volume control is applied before EQ, meaning it increases EQ headroom, and the Aux Out Level is applied after EQ, meaning it does not increase EQ headroom.

Here are a few tests showing this:

Guide for Managing Volume and Headroom on the WiiM Mini (Measurements)

This is a small excursion into volume and EQ headroom on the WiiM Mini (and by extension, likely other WiiM products). WiiM Mini Firmware: 4.6.805929 WiiM Home Version: 3.5.1 For all tests, I used a -1dBFS Measurement Sweep, exported from REW and played back directly via the WiiM Home App...

www.audiosciencereview.com

great post!

what about Audio Input -> Pre-grain, would adding neg. db there equal as headroom to boosting db in peq?

 

[Argentum 05]

Like I said - all it does is alter the signal to noise ratio - no other quality difference.


The only impact bit depth has is on the relative amount of quantisation noise - Since you are not really reducing the bit depth (the dac is still a 24bit (or 32bit) dac, you have just reduced the signal level within those bits, the quantisation noise at the output of the DAC remains unchanged. Just with signal reduced.


I realise this can sound counter intuitive. To get a better idea of how bit depth only impacts quantisation noise - watch the Monty "Digital Show and Tell" video (just search for "Monty" in the search bar - it is posted frequently)

Thank you! This is really interesting!

 

[Miguelón]

Thank you! Very interesting and useful research.

So, I was right when I set the limit to 90% and capped the maximum allowed gain at 3dB in the RoomFit settings.

I hope that what applies to the Wiim Mini is equally applicable to the Wiim Pro Plus.

However, the following questions remain:
1) How much does a significant reduction in volume percentage affect sound quality? Specifically, when the 8-bit volume control is exhausted?
Will there be a deterioration in quality if I set it to, say, 10% or 5%?

2) Does selecting an output voltage between 0.2V and 2V affect sound quality?

So, in theory, it follows that it's advisable to set the volume limit to 80-85% and set the output voltage to the maximum allowable level?
And then adjust the volume to the desired level?
(I'm using the RCA output.)

I use to play at very low levels digitally, because of the high sensitivity of my speakers.

I tried to listen some difference if doing the following:

-Reducing signal output to 0.5 V (at the time I supposed was analogue voltage reduction)

-Connecting an external DAC-preamp (iFi Zen Signature v2) with wheel analogue attenuator.

None of that sounded better, even if theoretically the second option should be close to zero impact on SNR (not really, the preamp section should have its own SNR degradation by reducing volume, as keeping its noise floor).

 

[sotiridaf]

The line out of Ultra is much better than Pro plus as quality in sound. So if you use it to feed some active speakers choose the Ultra

 

[antcollinet]

The line out of HD is much better than Pro plus as quality in sound. So if you use it to feed some active speakers choose the HD.

Which post are you replying to here - it is far from clear. Quoting is aways useful.

 

[sotiridaf]

Which post are you replying to here - it is far from clear. Quoting is aways useful.

Its an opinion

 

[morillon]

The line out of HD is much better than Pro plus as quality in sound. So if you use it to feed some active speakers choose the HD.

What is this """HD"""?